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Turtling is alive and well in MW


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And very aggravating. Here's a typical screenshot, aka. #HugTheTower until the other team gets impatient and kill themselves.

gUt9ELj.jpg

Please do something about it. There were some nice ideas, but they're not enough, since the rate at which Legion accumulates advantage over Hellbourne is still very slow (especially since clearing the neutral camp is actively dangerous now). 

Some possibilities:

- Reduce exp range from creeps. If you are not within, say, 700 range you get nothing.
- No passive experience gain. Goes hand-in-hand with the above.
- Make denies give 0 experience to enemy team.
- Make denies give gold to your team.
- Make destroying towers cause more enemy creeps spawn, which would push the wave + increase the relative gold gain for one team.
- Balance the creep movespeed so that they always meet in the center.
- Increase magic armor of creeps so it's harder to nuke waves.
- Increase magic armor of creeps once they're within range of an enemy tower.
- Make Merrick's rune spawn more often and/or give more gold especially once a tower is down.
- Add some kind of balancing factor based off how much one team is ahead of the other in terms of total gold (this is risky).
- Add some kind of balancing factor based off how much one team's total tower health is vs. the other's.
- Add some kind of destabilizing factor based off how long it has been since the last hero kill.

While you're at it, balance the neutral location as well - right now Legion gets to jungle safer than Hellbourne, thanks to 1) high ground and 2) easier access. Technically Hellbourne can be safe by pulling the creeps up the narrow corridor to the north, but there's no easy path to get there.

Edited by Sorais
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I play 1900+ MW regularly and have noticed it on occasion.  The games are overall still exciting, with very few suffering from no action... and that's a level where people try to win at all costs and never simply get bored and suicide.

Looking at your screenshot, it comes down to lineups.  Legion team is waiting on a Valk arrow, possibly a Ravenor shot.  Pyro is not a reliable stun and best for follow-up.  Ichor is a reactionary tank as well and not an initiator.  Hellbourne is hot garbage for initiation and is probably scared shitless to avoid the valk/rav skillshots.  They certainly can't do anything safely until 6.  Neither team has significant harass either so there isn't a sense of urgency.

My advice is to pick initiators/harassers or buy a tablet of command to make things happen.

Edited by MacroHard
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Toxicity breeds toxicity.  Break the cycle.

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6 hours ago, MacroHard said:

I play 1900+ MW regularly and have noticed it on occasion.  The games are overall still exciting, with very few suffering from no action... and that's a level where people try to win at all costs and never simply get bored and suicide.

Looking at your screenshot, it comes down to lineups.  Legion team is waiting on a Valk arrow, possibly a Ravenor shot.  Pyro is not a reliable stun and best for follow-up.  Ichor is a reactionary tank as well and not an initiator.  Hellbourne is hot garbage for initiation and is probably scared shitless to avoid the valk/rav skillshots.  They certainly can't do anything safely until 6.  Neither team has significant harass either so there isn't a sense of urgency.

My advice is to pick initiators/harassers or buy a tablet of command to make things happen.

Eh? Hellbourne initiates better because they have the Hammerstorm, and it's not like getting hit by Valk/Rav skillshots is that dangerous for Hellbourne because they have Accursed.

And besides if you have trouble believing Hellbourne are excellent tower huggers, here's another screenshot.

23ms2V6.jpg

Check it out - up four kills, full HP on everyone, hug the tower. (And no, Valk wasn't using ult.)

If you're wondering what Legion were doing, they were killing Zorgath/Trans, because they've run out of things to do.

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I agree with MacroHard that it usually depends on the heroes, could also be the players in some cases.

Pick an initiator, get your team to try fb under the elevator, win ward-wars, ban healers... You can do a lot of things to make things happen early.

 

and btw: - Balance the creep movespeed so that they always meet in the center.

All creeps have 325 ms, maybe your enemies blocked

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As with removing HP regen in Mid Wars Beta, don't you think that many of the changes you propose will make players turtle more because they'll be at more of a disadvantage? Based on what you said yourself in the past, keep that in mind.

 

If you're behind, you'll play as safe as possible if you're trying your hardest in this mode. If you overextend again or put yourself at risk and keep on dying, that's just a slippery slope. 

 

Also, creep waves meet in the middle just fine: oGzlpDs.jpg

 

There are variances where they sometimes meet a little bit closer to Hellbourne's side and a little bit closer towards Legion's side due to some randomness in the pathing when they start spawning, but overall it evens out. I don't see this being a big deal.

 

Mid Wars map changes as far as terrain/pathing goes is expensive price-wise, and we don't have a budget to change the terrain again. If you want it changed, then there has to be enough of a demand to have a donation goal for it & then the donation goal has to be met so that our map editor (who is not officially working for Garena by the way, but is happy to do the more substantial map changes for us for a price) can change it. Anyone can change the pathing, but making it look good & professional is a skill that most map editors do not have to get it suitable for public release status.

 

Do you think that paying him something like $50 or $100 is worth this endeavour? If so, you know what to do - you can publically say that you're willing to donate, I'll open up a donation goal & then we'll see if the goal can be met by a certain time.

Edited by ElementUser
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Real talk.

Reduce the experience range on creeps so you need to be closer and slow down the passive tick.

Would force people to get closer to the action and risk more.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here. I am not saying that those things will work. They might not. They need to be playtested. If they don't work then they are well-intentioned but ultimately bad changes not unlike some of the other changes you have made (such as the "new" map). It is certainly possible any such change will make the losing side lose worse and therefore turn games one sided. Or they might not. One needs to play to know. 

By "Balance the creep movespeed so that they always meet in the center" I mean make it so that if the creeps are currently fighting away from the center, make new creeps that spawn walk faster/slower so that they meet at the center.

You could also consider some kind of effect that depends on the relative healths of the T1 and T2 towers.

I don't know the state of HoN's finances and therefore will not comment on whether it's worth it to invest $X  to do Y or Z.

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You cant force people play agreesive when their heroes picked is not that type. No one want to die-respawn-die again.
Mw is fast respawn times, high GPM but does not mean you can brainless play it. Some people play for fun and some play to win, those gameplay will complete different from normal FoC

HoN SEA Player

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Half of those suggestions made my eyes roll so far back I went blind for a few hours. You are essentially making MW more punishing than FoC with some of those suggestions. No thanks. If you are tired of "turtle games" (I mean the first screenshot is 2 min into the game, some games are slower than others, get over it) then stop 5queuing (which I'm pretty sure you are doing since most "high ranked" MW players 5q) and just play the game.

Besides, I assume they are keeping their distance purely because they dont want to get locked into Adrenalines bullshit ultimate. I swear that ability should never have been implemented.

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31 minutes ago, SmolSnek said:

Half of those suggestions made my eyes roll so far back I went blind for a few hours. You are essentially making MW more punishing than FoC with some of those suggestions. No thanks. If you are tired of "turtle games" (I mean the first screenshot is 2 min into the game, some games are slower than others, get over it) then stop 5queuing (which I'm pretty sure you are doing since most "high ranked" MW players 5q) and just play the game.

Besides, I assume they are keeping their distance purely because they dont want to get locked into Adrenalines bullshit ultimate. I swear that ability should never have been implemented.

Lol, love this post for its ignorance. Tip: check the other screenshots, and check the lineups carefully while you're at it.

Also, FYI, there is such a thing as queuing into a 5q. First thread I made about this, I didn't 5q. Besides, you're claiming 5qs aren't "playing the game". /shrug.

Edited by Sorais
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Its all about heroes mostly. Why would any1 for example keep initiating against heroes like accursed / ds / pearl / ichor or any heavy healer/support? Sometimes you know your team is made of medicore damage capability and you know enemies can easily outheal that so there's almost no chance unless big chunk of luck of killing someone so why bother? Lets wait a bit, get some lvls, get some items and then try instead of mindless suiciding because it's boring. Of course early heavy magic dmg nukers 'd like to fight early on because they shine in that time but it's all about team setups, nothing else

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I play exclusively MW, but let's do a reality check here, this game, its balance and development is very much focused on the FoC map. Midwars is a quickplay mode and not a lot of resources will be dumped into it. You suggest a million changes and actual dedicated MW playtesting.

Is it buggy? Sure, bans aren't visualized half the time during the banning phase, assists are somehow missed even after hitting a hero twice or casting a lightning bolt (as TB for example), but it's still good fun for everyone.

Like most people said, it's the draft problem. Some of the MW games will look like this and feel shit to play no matter what new changes you'd implement. I think it's OK right now.

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It's definitely not a draft problem, but a player playstyle problem. Don't believe me - watch the game. Remember, both teams have initiators.

OT: could also try something like, if one team has X more towers than the other team, then Merrick's rune provides Y times as much gold for that team. Maybe also make it so that if you are up towers, Merrick's rune is automatically counted as picked up by your team as well if not picked up normally - this would make it less punishing to push against a team that's hugging the T2 tower, since you no longer lose out on Merrick's.

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The thing is that every change that goes in that discourages turtling, you're reducing the likelyhood of comebacks and you're putting more & more emphasis on the first tower that will snowball the winning team, which in turn makes it so that early game becomes even more important than it is now.

 

It turns the mentality more & more towards "well, we lost the first tower, the rest of the game is going to be a waste of time" - and that will just put it closer to making Mid Wars unfun.

 

You've already seen this overreaction happen on the forums when the tower down count vs. respawn time penalty changes were made - it turned out to be fine because you can still come back from it & the winning team does not get such a gamebreaking advantage with it, if the teams are indeed closer in power level than the score suggests.

 

This is why I'm hesitant to do much more of these types of changes to Mid Wars - it already got quite a bit of backlash for the nature of the change.

Edited by ElementUser
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Although it's a fair point that making turtling harder also makes comebacks less likely, let's not have selective memory here. Ask most MW players what they feel about the tower change and they'll probably say something to the tune of "it hasn't had much impact". The biggest impact happens when the 2nd tower goes down, but if the 2nd tower goes down turtling is impossible (or at least much less effective) anyway. The difference when the first tower goes down is insignificant in a typical game (it's a little more noticeable but still quite negligible when one side is turtling hard).

Furthermore, easily the biggest change over the years that affected the likelihood of comebacks was making the gold gained for kill dependent on the dead hero's GPM relative to the rest of the game. That change significantly decreased the number of won teamfights necessary to turn a losing game around. It buffed carries big time. Don't forget around 2013-2014 Torturer was one of the best heroes in MW, now he's barely above average, with the biggest strike against him being he doesn't scale.

I am also surprised you are measuring "backlash" based on forum responses, because that is clearly sampling bias. Do you remember the thread that criticized the Nullstone change that made it ally-targetable? I certainly don't see anyone complaining about that now. Do you think it was a bad change in retrospect?

The big danger with these changes is that it makes the already-weak heroes even weaker. If you're picking Magebane for example, you kind of have to hug the tower because your team is probably losing a fight anyway. On the other hand, some heroes have already suffered collateral damage and most of the MW community don't seem to care, e.g. Ophelia went from terrible to beyond terrible when you changed the neutral camp, but there's no backlash I'm aware of. Or maybe there's some smart idea that will make Magebane more viable while simultaneously discouraging turtling (by the way Merrick's Rune helps Magebane be slightly more viable, because he can go get the run every minute now and get some gold that way, while still being able to participate if a fight breaks out and/or escape if opponent initiates).

I don't know what it's like to develop a game like HoN, but as an outsider I would be inclined to try something and revert it if it fails. Some of the ideas in the OP seem pretty easy to implement, which would make the opportunity cost low, as well.

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