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Qi's general limbo state of (im)balance and how to (potentially) redeem him


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I'm going to make this quick and straight forward to avoid as little unessecary content as possible!

 

Qi is currently stuck in an eternal state of balance limbo, in which he is either absolutely underwhelming or ridiculously overwhelming.
This issue is caused by the fact that his abilities scale unlike most abilities, off of his opponents stats, their atk damage in particular.
This in turn results in him being subjected to numbers he can not control which in turn means that he can not be balanced according to those numbers in a manner, that is not going toward either extreme.
The SOLE reason for that: his ability damage scales!

 

The solution I'd like to propose is fairly simple:
Instead of scaling his damage to an amount that is either ludicrous or laughable, instead rely on his utility to scale accordingly.
Utility has proven to be by fare more reliable in crippling carries than damage has.
So instead of have Qi being a Carrynuker, turn him into a Carrycripple. Eitherway he will perform his nichejob in crippling/countering carries.

Reduce the scaling of his damage according to opponents attack damage DRASTICALLY.
Have him apply his debuffs for 1 second by default (all SuperiorMagic target scheme) and scale exponentially according to opponents attack damage in duration.
Reduce the slow from his Q to only 10% but not lingering and make it default (non scaling).
Have Q's disarm scale in proportion to ability level and opponents attack damage, to more accurately cripple attackdamage carries instead of supports.
Have his W instead apply a slow in according to opponents attackdamage that scales the more stacks it applies (aka the longer it affects an opponent) and have the stacks lingeroff drastically when getting out of it's area of effect.
Have his ult deal less damage but instead apply a Silence and Perplex with duration according to affected units attackdamage.
Change his Staff to widen the area in which his ult is being applied or turn it into a cone.

All of these changes will require effort to be balanced but the ultimate upside is, that his values will no longer be either overwhelming or underwhelming while he will still play the exact same way and fill the exact same niche: crippling carries throughout the game without breaking an entire team.

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I like the suggestion but I wonder if the disable could reach 10 seconds long, I'm not that good on mathematic to figure that.

Off topic: I saw your name on patch note title.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

 

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12 minutes ago, w3wstarboy said:

The problem of Qi.

Supporter but all of his skill is about damage ??

I dont even know why Qi is consider as a supporter from the start? His disarm ?

one of the reasons i am suggesting this change because that is exactly his problem, he is all about damage and damage that relies on someone elses numbers is factually impossible to balance and puts him into a difficult position in any case. damage supports exist but they are considered nukers and usually played differently. or that is my assessment atleast.

 

19 minutes ago, datfizh said:

I like the suggestion but I wonder if the disable could reach 10 seconds long, I'm not that good on mathematic to figure that.

Off topic: I saw your name on patch note title.

obviously there should be a cap^^
99 seconds disarm, scout gonna cry in a corner :'D
not that i would mind *cough* @FireHam *cough*

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As someone who plays a lot of Qi, Qi is fine with the new changes.

You can't draft him all the time, but when you do he is a hero that can completely crush certain heroes without needing to buy items. Honestly I want more heroes like Qi that come out of a niche and aren't picked all the time. I don't want to see another AoE Damage Over Time hero, I don't want to see Enlightenment removed, as it makes him very unique and gives him a place that doesn't directly compete with other AoE DoT Location heroes.

The problem is if you remove Enlightenment, you now have the problem where he is just a magic damage over time hero, which means he directly compete with people like Oogie, Torturer, Parallax, Ellonia et al. This means that he now has direct competitors which is bad. One of those heroes will always be better than the others, one will always just deal more magic damage per second.

Honestly he's fine and we should see where the patch shakes him out to, he's basically getting a ton more damage and QoL.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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5 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

The problem is if you remove Enlightenment, you now have the problem where he is just a magic damage over time hero, which means he directly compete with people like Oogie, Torturer, Parallax, Ellonia et al. This means that he now has direct competitors which is bad. One of those heroes will always be better than the others, one will always just deal more magic damage per second.

which applies to his current iteration of "damage based on damage", but with my proposed changes that is irrelevant as the hero is not about nuking a carry anymore but rather about shutting down or crippling carries during crucial moments, which currently he doesnt do.
we have heroes like ws or polly that, regardless of their target, cripple their opponent, but with changing Qi's point of focus from damage to utility you can now contest those heroes in terms of utility when it comes to carries, without overwhelming supports or tanks/initiators  simultaneously.

thats where i am coming from.
we have sufficent sources of damage and scaling it based on a value you can not directly interact with is bad practice in my oppinion but it is viable against certain opponents. so he is not about oneshoting a carry anymore but rather crippling them and taking them out of a fight through other means that mesmerize or sheep while also giving the entire team a breathing second while the opponent has to reoorganize their efforts.

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36 minutes ago, MerryHONmas said:

which applies to his current iteration of "damage based on damage", but with my proposed changes that is irrelevant as the hero is not about nuking a carry anymore but rather about shutting down or crippling carries during crucial moments, which currently he doesnt do.
we have heroes like ws or polly that, regardless of their target, cripple their opponent, but with changing Qi's point of focus from damage to utility you can now contest those heroes in terms of utility when it comes to carries, without overwhelming supports or tanks/initiators  simultaneously.

thats where i am coming from.
we have sufficent sources of damage and scaling it based on a value you can not directly interact with is bad practice in my oppinion but it is viable against certain opponents. so he is not about oneshoting a carry anymore but rather crippling them and taking them out of a fight through other means that mesmerize or sheep while also giving the entire team a breathing second while the opponent has to reoorganize their efforts.

But we have people that Cripple Carries. We have Rampages and Pandas and Succubi. If you want to disable a carry through Shrunken there are tons of better options. What Qi offers is the ability to completely gutterblast heroes who build like glass cannons or forgo health.

No other hero does what he does and that is a good thing. It's why I fought so hard to not have EU throw out the baby with the bathwater in his previous major change.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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I think the only thing needed to make Qi viable is to have his ult deal a flat amount of damage, and then add a % of the enemy attack damage (rescale down a bit)

This means it won't be completely useless against everyone but farmed carries. 

That's it, that's all he needs. 

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I've kinda given up trying to convince EU on this but to you OP I just don't see the issue. It's a meta pick that punishes (and used to even more) greedy plays or a carry reliant team and forces some serious considerations on behalf of the other teams purchases, somewhat limiting their choices and giving your team that benefit. 

I mean I dont really care, I play in the 1500's while taking a break from work or studies to talk some shit and kick some ass but that's what I would say and react if I was a 1900 player. 

It's not really an issue, it's just an issue from the perspective of limiting your opponents somewhat/forces them to rethink which I find to be spices things up and others find creates frustration. 

Qi's greatest strength is when he's coupled with a super late game carry vs an enemy team with such a super late game hero too. This results in the other teams carry being more exposed than yours or having to go a more tanky/less effective build. It's basically a great last-pick counter pick to such a setup and adds a further tactical element to the pick phase too. 

Edited by Ondis
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On 12/2/2020 at 12:21 PM, GoochMeister said:

I think the only thing needed to make Qi viable is to have his ult deal a flat amount of damage, and then add a % of the enemy attack damage (rescale down a bit)

This means it won't be completely useless against everyone but farmed carries. 

That's it, that's all he needs. 

Im with you on that one.  

Atleast make his ulti noticeable on enemies that are not carries I mean why is the spell and AOE if it wont do anything to the mass of the enemy team but only the one carry? Might aswel make it a single cast spell so you wont miss the damn thing on the carry you are focusing 24/7

Nothing worse than lining that ulti up perfectly to not even see the enemies health bar drop 1/50

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  • 2 weeks later...

The issue is that the ultimate calculation would be independent of the E level. We COULD do that to rebalance it, but then E won't really do anything for the ability (and if it does, incorporating the multiplier will be a bit of a pain).

 

I can speak to @MacroHard about this though - it's what we did in the past iteration of Qi for his ultimate because of the problem you mentioned. That being said, even though it's mechanically fine to balance the ultimate this way, design-wise I don't think he'll like it 😛 

 

=====

 

However, I took a look at the numbers and he appears to be doing just fine. I don't think there's a need to change it, when this hero's intention is meant to be a niche pick/counter pick hero. The idea is that he performs his job (the reason you pick him) exponentially better than other heroes can, which is to counter autoattack carry heroes, and this ability scales with the opponent & not yourself.

Edited by ElementUser
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This is another amazing suggestion worth considering.  This community is amazing.

Scaling burst off the enemy damage is indeed a design limitation.  This just might be the compromise needed to retain his theme without the unfortunate side effects in the extreme conditions.

Toxicity breeds toxicity.  Break the cycle.

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I can see why his passive is too hard to balance and limit the change on Qi

Why not make his other skill scale on enemy attack damage with lower percent and give him the other passive that engage people to play him rather than limit the condition to play him

Edited by w3wstarboy
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