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4.9.0 Patch Notes - HoNmas 2020 Discussion


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  1. what's the reasoning behind the frostwolf change? why would a tank or a support get an expensive scouting item. especially considering the price point, why would one even bother to make that item - it's too expensive to be farmed early in the game and practically useless end game. i get that there needed to be a differentiation from frostfield plate but really, an expensive scouting item?
  2. as echoed from some other poster, flint with free true strike? getting evasion was one of the ways to counter flint. flint is essentially artillery LRM skill personified that scales incredibly well mid to late game. flint did not need that additional utility. flint needing to get savage mace helps cap flint's item builds, and with the free true strike flint can now get an additional item.
    • a suggestion is to add arachna's true strike to spider sting. true strike only applies against heroes affected by spider sting.
  3. jack of all trades hero for SB - ?!? in practice, SB does not have much supporting/tanking/frontlining/team utility skills and with this recent change he's essentially just a paperweight/filler especially on late game. i think people (including me) always saw SB as an all trades carry that could change his play/stat style depending on which carry/team he's facing against by having the skills to support himself. as it is currently, his skills lend him to be a carry in some capacity and the nerf this patch makes him useless. if the intended goal was to make him NOT excel in any particular playstyle then congrats i guess? 
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Where are your statistics for her so-called 95% win rate in tournaments?   Ophelia is considered a high skill cap hero, and she is currently deemed as fine. She also has considerable counter

2 patches ago: Lets kill Shadowblade. 🤮 1 patch ago. Lets bring him back. 😍 Current patch: Lets make him support? semi carry? do not allow him scale - something that he was meant to be? scalea

First of all, let's not forget that last patch, directly(with the camps exp changes) and indirectly (with the hatchet nerfs, because Wildsoul was buying 2 hatchets, 1 for him self and 1 for booboo,  y

7 hours ago, GoochMeister said:

I'm also annoyed because now I have to stop calling people idiots for getting it on armadon and legionnaire lol

It was always garbage.  Any tank worth its salt buys armor over stacking health.

Toxicity breeds toxicity.  Break the cycle.

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13 hours ago, GoochMeister said:

Well, firstly, it's not a matter of counterplay. It's a matter of game balance. I see EU has changed the return damage to 65% now which makes it better. 

Also, you can't consider an item that costs 3 times as much as barbed a "counter" to it. 

Uh, well obviously item that counters it should be cost more so the item is still worth investment. Also, dispel still works well to counter the item, I've tested it on practice. Sand Scepter is cheap counter to Barbed Armor and it's not selfish counter as Symbol of Rage.

Though, the number indeed needed adjustment and luckily it is solved.

11 hours ago, neoazul said:
  1. what's the reasoning behind the frostwolf change? why would a tank or a support get an expensive scouting item. especially considering the price point, why would one even bother to make that item - it's too expensive to be farmed early in the game and practically useless end game. i get that there needed to be a differentiation from frostfield plate but really, an expensive scouting item?
  2. as echoed from some other poster, flint with free true strike? getting evasion was one of the ways to counter flint. flint is essentially artillery LRM skill personified that scales incredibly well mid to late game. flint did not need that additional utility. flint needing to get savage mace helps cap flint's item builds, and with the free true strike flint can now get an additional item.
    • a suggestion is to add arachna's true strike to spider sting. true strike only applies against heroes affected by spider sting.
  3. jack of all trades hero for SB - ?!? in practice, SB does not have much supporting/tanking/frontlining/team utility skills and with this recent change he's essentially just a paperweight/filler especially on late game. I think people (including me) always saw SB as an all trades carry that could change his play/stat style depending on which carry/team he's facing against by having the skills to support himself. as it is currently, his skills lend him to be a carry in some capacity and the nerf this patch makes him useless. if the intended goal was to make him NOT excel in any particular playstyle then congrats I guess? 

1. What was Frostwolf function before this patch? Its active was barely a weak version of Frostfield Plate. Was it the passive worth the investment of Frostwolf? It's a good thing this patch makes this item slightly different than Frostfield.

2. I partially agree on this statement. Though, Flint's bonus attack range feels like no longer an advantage if he misses his attacks most of time caused by elevation. Yeah, positioning is one key to solve the problem but Flint doesn't have any mobility kit to cover that problem. So, let's see how this buff plays out.

3. If you look at the starting stats change, it's a buff for his early presence. I think you underestimate Shadowblade current kits, he's close to Tundra by comparison. I guess the purpose of this patch to make Shadowblade a semi-carry or support if the circumstance demands.

3 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Shadowblade change is funny. You looked like big guy in 3 seconds and then become a useless fat boys in next 12 seconds

It has its advantage so people who don't read the patch note think how hard he is in this patch until they realize it only temporary. Just change the form 3 seconds later to make them not realize this change.

Edited by datfizh

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Ophelia's win rate is roughly 55% according to the Learnatorium. Ophelia is definitely a strong hero, but it takes more skill to play her. Also, she tends to fall off after the 25 minute mark if you haven't pushed racks in. At that point, minions can be bursted down with ease and by late game the global heal isn't that great or impactful. 

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On 11/29/2020 at 2:19 PM, Diabetis said:

I'd agree with him about ophelia and wildsoul. In higher game, chance that ophelia carries the early and midgame is many many times higher than wildsoul actually getting to 600+ gpm and carrying the game. Ophelia needs to be adressed as it's imo the strongest hero in the game.

edit: also you are contradicting yourself because old Nitro was also a high skill cap hero, it had many counterplays and it was never above 45% winrate. And it was heavily nerfed before eventually getting reworked

also he is about right on Ophelia's winrate in tournaments and scrims because it's either a 1st ban or a 2nd ban in every game. For a REASON.

Hero falls off around 25 minutes though if Rax haven't been taken... 

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27 minutes ago, DoorDash said:

Hero falls off around 25 minutes though if Rax haven't been taken... 

I don't agree that ophelia really falls off..  you have the potential for 3 superior disables with skeletons, the ability to save heroes with W, especially if you have a stormspirit, and your Q lets your team blow up most heroes quite easily late game.  Also many strong creeps exist the scale into late game..  Obviously most ophelias would prefer to end the game sooner than later but it is NOT useless late game by any means.

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1 hour ago, datfizh said:

1. What was Frostwolf function before this patch? Its active was barely a weak version of Frostfield Plate. Was it the passive worth the investment of Frostwolf? It's a good thing this patch makes this item slightly different than Frostfield.

frostwolf was the offensive counterpart to frostfield plate. carries and offensive tanks would not get frostfield plate. they could, but why? imagine FA getting frostfield plate? no. frostfield plate, to me, synergizes with frontline initiators who need an extra mana pool boost (balph, legio, deadlift). Frostwolf was for offensive tanks and carries who need bulk and slow/chase someone down (tundra, jera, FA, EW).

I agree with your point that this patch makes is different from frostfield but to make it a 5,100 gold scouting item is ridiculous. scouting is mostly needed early to mid game and a 5100 gold item is not worth that investment. and again, who will be buying a scouting item- a support? a tank? on early to mid game? neither.  wards are 100 gold.

1 hour ago, datfizh said:

3. If you look at the starting stats change, it's a buff for his early presence. I guess the purpose of this patch to make Shadowblade a semi-carry or support if the circumstance demands.

yup it buffed SB's early presence, but his spells dont synergize in team play to take full advantage of the patch change, especially early on. i get the intention was to make sb a jack of trades semi-carry or support if needed, but he was already that hero late game as a carry. if the intended goal was to make him NOT excel in any particular playstyle then again congrats. my point being, he was already a jack of all trades carry late game, why change him when he was already working well? is it just because you needed to stick with this idea of "jack of trades"? also, am i missing something but what shadowblade player plays him as support (buying sheepstick doesnt automatically make you a support hero).

Edited by neoazul
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35 minutes ago, BR`sensation said:

I don't agree that ophelia really falls off..  you have the potential for 3 superior disables with skeletons, the ability to save heroes with W, especially if you have a stormspirit, and your Q lets your team blow up most heroes quite easily late game.  Also many strong creeps exist the scale into late game..  Obviously most ophelias would prefer to end the game sooner than later but it is NOT useless late game by any means.

Didn't say useless. But tends to drop off the longer the game goes. Especially when the team has more AOE spells that clear creep waves easy. 

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Here's my thoughts about the patch-

Grinex- More, more! A nightmare to lane against and I welcome any nerfs to him.

Engineer- I think the changes are very justified, I've rarely seen anyone pinpoint the gun correctly to hit most of the bullets, and mine drop under hero was a tad too strong.

Empath- I fear the aura might be too strong now, it's half of a heart's regen to the entire team, but we'll see. The wall is a lovely change, people might take more than 1 in the ability now, especially when it has to compete with that aura!.

Bramble- Love it, never play the hero, but might now, also the SOTM suddenly makes sense.

Blacksmith- Agree with changes, every single one of them except for the 10% extra movement speed, that would mean level 1 buff gives him 16% movement speed, I'd scale it instead.

Shadowblade- I tried to make the hero work, really did, it's so hard compared to other heroes, now he's weaker after level 8 in stats and was nerfed in his little farm niche that was still pathetic compared to real carries. Can't see myself supporting on that hero, would rather take a real one like prophet that can stun and heal.

Rhapsody- love it, nothing more to say.

Rampage- THANK YOU!! A bit closer to the older style of rampage, still miss his stun attack and the bigger stats, but THANK YOU!!.

Glacius- Weird scaling on the tundra blast, 60/20/20, but I guess it's because the slow gets doubly stronger as it grows in levels, not sure how much impact it will have, so reserve judgement.

Really interested in new Adrenaline and Elec's SOTM effect(the toggle is fun, but I'm talking about the aoe slow every 9 seconds).

Frostfield plate+Armor of the mad mage- I feel that in the pursuit of making FWS and FFP different, FFP now infringes on Armor of the mad mage instead with both having an active against auto attack carries, and I also feel mad mage lost too much for 1000 gold buildup(1/4 of the cost), the active is 66% weaker, the armor is halved, no dispel

Love the Elder parasite change- I don't see it picked up as often which is sad.

Grimoire- A fitting reason to get it I believe for significant roles, I only sometimes got it before, and always on a support because they live off the cooldowns.

 

 

 

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Great patch. Downside I see is shadowblade, which was basically the only carry I liked to play due to it's variety and transitions within a game. But previous changes already messed with him so that shouldn't be a critics on the patch itself as he was not really playable at least not in that carry role before. Might give him a try as hard support but still a bit sad

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2 hours ago, neoazul said:

frostwolf was the offensive counterpart to frostfield plate. carries and offensive tanks would not get frostfield plate. they could, but why? imagine FA getting frostfield plate? no. frostfield plate, to me, synergizes with frontline initiators who need an extra mana pool boost (balph, legio, deadlift). Frostwolf was for offensive tanks and carries who need bulk and slow someone down (tundra, jera, FA, EW).

I agree with your point that this patch makes is different from frostfield but to make it a 5,100 gold scouting item is ridiculous. scouting is mostly needed early to mid game and a 5100 gold item is not worth that investment. and again, who will be buying a scouting item- a support? a tank? on early to mid game? neither.  wards are 100 gold.

Fair points. If I'm not mistaken, the area effect is still there but requiring another activation to do so. Also, wards don't prevent enemy to still invisible thanks to Veiled Rot and it risks to put one on enemy territory. In addition, the scouting item on carries isn't that bad because it makes them a self-suffice without assistance of ally to provide the scouting in order to get themselves stay safe.

2 hours ago, neoazul said:

yup it buffed SB's early presence, but his spells dont synergize in team play to take full advantage of the patch change, especially early on. i get the intention was to make sb a jack of trades semi-carry or support if needed, but he was already that hero late game as a carry. if the intended goal was to make him NOT excel in any particular playstyle then again congrats. my point being, he was already a jack of all trades carry late game, why change him when he was already working well? is it just because you needed to stick with this idea of "jack of trades"? also, am i missing something but what shadowblade player plays him as support (buying sheepstick doesnt automatically make you a support hero).

I think jack of all trades on late game didn't go well to Shadowblade in the end because the patches so far from my personal perspective tried making him one by tackling some of his capability in early and mid game and the result of his winrate got lower instead. I personally believe that late game hero should have steep start because balance reason.

Also, Shadowblade support wasn't available at that time because as you said yourself he tended to be jack of all trade on late game and support excels well on early game. Now, Shadowblade support is possible because he has the better start than he was in term of stats.

I believe you didn't entirely agree on the nerfs so far on Shadowblade. So, if we happen to see the peak Shadowblade back (I think version 4.4.0 Shadowblade, you can check the detail on wiki), what do you think something that should be addressed about him if you wish for him to be a late game jack of all trades to the current meta without neglecting the balance?

Edited by datfizh

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

 

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2 patches ago: Lets kill Shadowblade. 🤮

1 patch ago. Lets bring him back. 😍

Current patch: Lets make him support? semi carry? do not allow him scale - something that he was meant to be? scaleable hero. Lets make him funny 💩 so... Lets make him dead again. 

 

Flint: Let this cancer grow 😣

Rampage: Hello! This is real resurrection and best skill ever is back! 🤩💫💪

 

Edited by VaYha
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I was really happy when I sqw that lightbrand based items can be actually used by mages like Artesia or Ellonia (searing after spell dmg). It doesn't seem to work though so I m not sure what really changd here.

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First impressions:

- If Adrenaline's frustration factor stems from the fact that there is no "counterplay" (itself a wrong statement, since it's blocked by Nullstone & Stormspirit), then Predator & Soul Reaper also need reworking. If anything was wrong with Adrenaline it's his laning ability. RIP Adrenaline.
- New Adrenaline looks crap. Okay now he can trap heroes, but he can't kill them. The ult doesn't do damage. I have not seen or played against new Adrenaline but I would guess he is underpowered.
- Rhapsody might be overbuffed now, especially if the change to Disco Inferno means you actually heal more when moving.
- Artillery change is clever and probably a good idea, especially in MW.
- Flint might be collateral damage from FoC, since he's even better than he already is in MW now, and he wasn't bad in FoC in the first place. In fact if I remember right, last I saw he was the most picked hero in Garena and had 53% win rate. It's pretty ironic given the changes to Artillery.
- Never felt Salf needed a nerf.
- Pebbles badly needed the nerf but we'll see if it's sufficient.
- Pyro buff is pretty dangerous in MW since he's already a good hero; on the other hand I might be in the minority since other players seem to think Ellonia is better (and too bad for Torturer, I guess).
- Shellshock Rolling Thunder change should make him better in MW, which is great, since it was a glaring problem with his skill set.
- Elder Parasite change is again pretty dangerous in MW, where the item has most applications. It's a significant buff in every way and might become core on carries so they can hit their power spikes quicker. Granted it was already an option, but it might become an even more important one.
- Happy to see the changes to the MW map, now please make more changes to make turtling harder.

No real opinion on the rest of the changes, I will have to play and see (which will probably take a lot more time than previously since the amount of HoN I've been playing has cratered).

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