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4.9.0 Patch Notes - HoNmas 2020 Discussion


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Where are your statistics for her so-called 95% win rate in tournaments?   Ophelia is considered a high skill cap hero, and she is currently deemed as fine. She also has considerable counter

2 patches ago: Lets kill Shadowblade. 🤮 1 patch ago. Lets bring him back. 😍 Current patch: Lets make him support? semi carry? do not allow him scale - something that he was meant to be? scalea

First of all, let's not forget that last patch, directly(with the camps exp changes) and indirectly (with the hatchet nerfs, because Wildsoul was buying 2 hatchets, 1 for him self and 1 for booboo,  y

1 hour ago, Ladonien said:

Additionally, I am surprised how hard Shadowblade got with his nerf on W.

While it may make sense for farming neutrals in the woods, it was primarily used to kill 3x ancients early and was one of those heroes that could solo Kongor with lifesteal.

Before he gets cleaver, he is quite hard to reach high GPMs with, and it seems like you are nerfing his weakest part as he is one of the hardest carries in the game but with compensation on having weaker ability to flashfarm.

He's not intended to be one of the best hardest carries in the game. The hero is meant to be a jack-of-all-trades hero.

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7 hours ago, Rezziedahl said:

I'm surprised people are upset over WS not getting any buff. It's quite obvious to me that he's gonna get a rework, so any attention and effort to buff/nerf/reevaluate current WS would be wasted.

 

Just forget the hero exists for a couple patches.

Exactly, the hero has fundamental issues in terms of skill floor vs. skill ceiling on the design level. SomaZ's rework did not bode well for Wildsoul in the long term.

 

Also, a few other things:

- The Bear Form change wasn't worded the best (it has a 1 second cooldown AFTER morphing, so you can't just morph and revert right away. You don't take 1 whole second to morph into the form.

- The intention of the outcome of the Mana Cost change is negligible because Wildsoul's only other active ability he uses constantly is his Wild (W), but the values could be a little high.

 

The real intention of those changes are to prevent Wildsoul players from constantly spamming his ultimate with regards to the VFX/SFX. It wasn't really an intention to nerf Wildsoul & I didn't make this clear yesterday because some people are way too fixated on the fact that they view everything as a nerf when really, the "nerfs" (while actual nerfs on a relative & technical level) barely change anything.

Edited by ElementUser
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The mana cost nerf isn't negligible at all, as most of the good Wildsoul players were maxing stats instead of his E after level 11, so now you make him put more levels in his E, making the hero way squishier/weaker and susceptible to ganks from level 12-18 while also making him farm slower.

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On 11/30/2020 at 7:21 PM, GoochMeister said:

I think people are overlooking how massively overpowered the barbed armour change is. (Think about interactions with barrier idol, or with stacking loads of armour on tanky heroes)

I'm also annoyed because now I have to stop calling people idiots for getting it on armadon and legionnaire lol

Well, Barbed Armor still gets countered by dispel (I have no idea when it got changed if it is no longer the case) and Symbol of Rage. Also, Kane shares familiar calling as Armadon and Legionnaire, or not.

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10 minutes ago, FanOfWoop said:

The mana cost nerf isn't negligible at all, as most of the good Wildsoul players were maxing stats instead of his E after level 11, so now you make him put more levels in his E, making the hero way squishier/weaker and susceptible to ganks from level 12-18 while also making him farm slower.

When players actually do this over getting a skill level, it's generally called bad design & there are fundamental issues with the hero.

 

Anyway, I have made the following last-minute changes to the patch. They are announced here: 

 

Edited by ElementUser
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I get your point, but that thing makes the hero WEAK not stronger like you are trying to prove, getting stats over E is just a trick that high players do to make a horrible hero look decent-ish(still weak).

Maybe a possible change should be making his E spell a team aura while lowering the numbers a bit.

 

Edit: Is it possible to get his starting Intelligence increased by 1 or 2 as it doesn't really affect him to compensate for his ulty manacost?

Edited by FanOfWoop
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Who else would learn stat over E??. It give crazy amount life steal and allow wild soul to endless spamming his buff. With Runed axe, Ws wont need to go back to fountain to regen his HP.

The life steal also great in combat because ws will always have higher level than the whole match, so it's not possible to 1vs1 Ws unless you have items more than him.

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5 minutes ago, w3wstarboy said:

Who else would learn stat over E??. It give crazy amount life steal and allow wild soul to endless spamming his buff. With Runed axe, Ws wont need to go back to fountain to regen his HP.

The life steal also great in combat because ws will always have higher level than the whole match, so it's not possible to 1vs1 Ws unless you have items more than him.

It's not about having lifesteal at the beginning, when you can just hit & run the neutrals with Boobo, so your bear can barely take any damage. The + learning instead of E is about mobility and its about how squishy the hero is. People are making big mistake by thinking that WS is a heavy carry/should be farming 20mins in woods till he gets farmed. Nope! Just get him Ghost marchers, power supply, some agility items like nullfire or the item that costs 1200, get level 7, and be ready to stomp their manup lane. Leveling E isntead of + does nothing, but stucks you in the woods for additional 10mins so you can just farm.

Also another thing, give Ophelia & Wildsoul to a new player and let's see which hero performs better. ( for the players that think Wildsoul > Ophelia )

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Also, about the lifesteal you mentioned. Take this as an opinion.

Item: Whispering helm - costs 1800 gold. 

Ability E: needs 4 levels on it till u get the lifesteal u need.

Which one is better? Would u rather spend 1800gc that u can farm  them in 3mins, or waste 4 levels on your E at the start of the game, instead of getting +10 +10 +10 stats?

Another thing you can be creativea bout. With whispering helm you can just get the Skeleton neutral and convert the hero into being a War Beast, while roaming around and stomping the heroes with escape.

Overall the hero is weak, but the 41% winrate is due to players that dont understand this hero.

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And with the ulty change, you just force Wildsoul to get an additional item into his slot at early game, which slows him and drags him back from the game.

(I'm talking about high TMM, about players that prefer using him as an active wood hero, not as a 40min wood farmer) - it kinda affects the active WS players, since the afk farmers dont really mind about this thing. - it wont affect them.

Be aware that from the start , hero has like 180 mana or something. You click abuse your W and you spam it every 20seconds (which costs 60mana) so u get max bonus, thats 120 wasted already. When you get 6, there's an additional problem now- your ulty ,which means u need to get few mana potions or chalice.

Good thing about the potions now is that you can use them while fighting with the neutrals. + for that.

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 A good wild soul will get his runed axe around 9 min

You need 3 mana regen/s to permanent active your buff. It's easy with runed axe and two point to E.

Also in high ranked match, Ws NOT FARMING in jungle, he go safe lane, with supporter. It's 3vs1 or 3vs2 while using bobo to stack creep so his supporter will always stay around him.
Even one point to E is enough for self farming in mid game so you will save some potion. Of course you dont need to max his E if you see it as a waste but put no point to E is really a joke

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Runed axe is a waste on WS. No way you get it at minute 9 since they removed main Ancients xD. 

WS safe lane is a waste, useless hero as a main carry.

Bobo usage as a stacker and not creep killer - waste.

Decent WS player will survive woods without buying a single potion.

What are you gonna do at minute 15 with a single item - runed cleaver and 700HP bar, since u prefer maxing E instead of "+" ? After you get your runed, u will need additional 10minutes to get decent farm so u can fight, thats 25 in total. Meantime your teammates will flame you for being useless. Runed cleaver is just a NO. Rather get hyper crown and put it on bear to cut waves. But doesn't matter, that's not my point, we went 2 far from the main theme of speaking.

Please, this comes from a good soruce. Got him as most played hero 12%, over 250games.

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I see many ws with 800+ GPM with that tactics?? What wrong with it?

Around 30 min, he got full items, and he dont need to go farm after getting runed axe? Why you think WS after getting runed axe still farming???

Getting runed axe around 9-10min in game is really huge problem to other team, you know?? WS may easy destroy one lane ifyou let he free after this and ganking him alone is very high risk, not mention that his allies isn't just watching, they will continue stacking creep for him.

Yes, Ws is not strong as a main carry but when you putting a strategy around him, you will see how the game go smoothing without worry about Carry items. Not like salomon

I dont say we max his E first or anything. I said that putting stat over his E is a joke. Wherever you max Q W first, i dont see anyone play WS without learning his E.

Edited by w3wstarboy
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Also i forgot that WS in NA and WS in SEA play complete different. There is a topic in the past complain how WS in NA not playing well like player in SEA
WS in SEA dont farm in jungle because it is easy to get rekt if the other team put ward to slow his farm, so they go safe lane, farming until WS get lv 5, they go eat stack, they rush runed axe before marcher (if possible). This strategy work well with a team 3 or 4, and often end the match fast, if they stuck. They switching to solo push mode because it hard to stop wild soul from pushing. So yes, Ws isn't strong as main carry

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2 hours ago, datfizh said:

Well, Barbed Armor still gets countered by dispel (I have no idea when it got changed if it is no longer the case) and Symbol of Rage. Also, Kane shares familiar calling as Armadon and Legionnaire.

Well, firstly, it's not a matter of counterplay. It's a matter of game balance. I see EU has changed the return damage to 65% now which makes it better. 

Also, you can't consider an item that costs 3 times as much as barbed a "counter" to it. 

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4 hours ago, ElementUser said:

He's not intended to be one of the best hardest carries in the game. The hero is meant to be a jack-of-all-trades hero.

If that is the case, I think that you should rework him completely. As for now it seems like you only nerfed the part that he was decent at, and this is coming from someone who loved this hero at first glance. I think that his peek was when he got buffed with SOTM (2014 iirc?).

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  1. what's the reasoning behind the frostwolf change? why would a tank or a support get an expensive scouting item. especially considering the price point, why would one even bother to make that item - it's too expensive to be farmed early in the game and practically useless end game. i get that there needed to be a differentiation from frostfield plate but really, an expensive scouting item?
  2. as echoed from some other poster, flint with free true strike? getting evasion was one of the ways to counter flint. flint is essentially artillery LRM skill personified that scales incredibly well mid to late game. flint did not need that additional utility. flint needing to get savage mace helps cap flint's item builds, and with the free true strike flint can now get an additional item.
    • a suggestion is to add arachna's true strike to spider sting. true strike only applies against heroes affected by spider sting.
  3. jack of all trades hero for SB - ?!? in practice, SB does not have much supporting/tanking/frontlining/team utility skills and with this recent change he's essentially just a paperweight/filler especially on late game. i think people (including me) always saw SB as an all trades carry that could change his play/stat style depending on which carry/team he's facing against by having the skills to support himself. as it is currently, his skills lend him to be a carry in some capacity and the nerf this patch makes him useless. if the intended goal was to make him NOT excel in any particular playstyle then congrats i guess? 
Edited by neoazul
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7 hours ago, GoochMeister said:

I'm also annoyed because now I have to stop calling people idiots for getting it on armadon and legionnaire lol

It was always garbage.  Any tank worth its salt buys armor over stacking health.

Toxicity breeds toxicity.  Break the cycle.

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13 hours ago, GoochMeister said:

Well, firstly, it's not a matter of counterplay. It's a matter of game balance. I see EU has changed the return damage to 65% now which makes it better. 

Also, you can't consider an item that costs 3 times as much as barbed a "counter" to it. 

Uh, well obviously item that counters it should be cost more so the item is still worth investment. Also, dispel still works well to counter the item, I've tested it on practice. Sand Scepter is cheap counter to Barbed Armor and it's not selfish counter as Symbol of Rage.

Though, the number indeed needed adjustment and luckily it is solved.

11 hours ago, neoazul said:
  1. what's the reasoning behind the frostwolf change? why would a tank or a support get an expensive scouting item. especially considering the price point, why would one even bother to make that item - it's too expensive to be farmed early in the game and practically useless end game. i get that there needed to be a differentiation from frostfield plate but really, an expensive scouting item?
  2. as echoed from some other poster, flint with free true strike? getting evasion was one of the ways to counter flint. flint is essentially artillery LRM skill personified that scales incredibly well mid to late game. flint did not need that additional utility. flint needing to get savage mace helps cap flint's item builds, and with the free true strike flint can now get an additional item.
    • a suggestion is to add arachna's true strike to spider sting. true strike only applies against heroes affected by spider sting.
  3. jack of all trades hero for SB - ?!? in practice, SB does not have much supporting/tanking/frontlining/team utility skills and with this recent change he's essentially just a paperweight/filler especially on late game. I think people (including me) always saw SB as an all trades carry that could change his play/stat style depending on which carry/team he's facing against by having the skills to support himself. as it is currently, his skills lend him to be a carry in some capacity and the nerf this patch makes him useless. if the intended goal was to make him NOT excel in any particular playstyle then congrats I guess? 

1. What was Frostwolf function before this patch? Its active was barely a weak version of Frostfield Plate. Was it the passive worth the investment of Frostwolf? It's a good thing this patch makes this item slightly different than Frostfield.

2. I partially agree on this statement. Though, Flint's bonus attack range feels like no longer an advantage if he misses his attacks most of time caused by elevation. Yeah, positioning is one key to solve the problem but Flint doesn't have any mobility kit to cover that problem. So, let's see how this buff plays out.

3. If you look at the starting stats change, it's a buff for his early presence. I think you underestimate Shadowblade current kits, he's close to Tundra by comparison. I guess the purpose of this patch to make Shadowblade a semi-carry or support if the circumstance demands.

3 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Shadowblade change is funny. You looked like big guy in 3 seconds and then become a useless fat boys in next 12 seconds

It has its advantage so people who don't read the patch note think how hard he is in this patch until they realize it only temporary. Just change the form 3 seconds later to make them not realize this change.

Edited by datfizh

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Ophelia's win rate is roughly 55% according to the Learnatorium. Ophelia is definitely a strong hero, but it takes more skill to play her. Also, she tends to fall off after the 25 minute mark if you haven't pushed racks in. At that point, minions can be bursted down with ease and by late game the global heal isn't that great or impactful. 

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