4.9.0 Patch Notes - HoNmas 2020 Discussion

[DragoniseR 15]

Merry HoNmas everyone!

I cant believe we can gift again!!

Will be eager to send my friends some love

We got some big and fun looking changes!

I love the visuals and new concept of frostwolf skull

Sapphire Ult a little bit faster! ^-^

Puppet passive atk speed combined with elder parasite will be nice !

 

[FanOfWoop 1]

Can we get an explanation why is the 40% winrate Wildoul with 0% pickrate in scrims/tournamets getting a nerf, while the 60% winrate Ophelia with ~65%+ ban/pickrate and 95% winrate in tournaments is left untouched yet again?

[Viden 6]

nice, barbed is finally viable on legionnare again (since getting helm and shamans was counter-productive with barbed before)

[ElementUser 839]

20 minutes ago, FanOfWoop said:

Can we get an explanation why is the 40% winrate Wildoul with 0% pickrate in scrims/tournamets getting a nerf, while the 60% winrate Ophelia with ~65%+ ban/pickrate and 95% winrate in tournaments is left untouched yet again?

Where are your statistics for her so-called 95% win rate in tournaments?

 

Ophelia is considered a high skill cap hero, and she is currently deemed as fine. She also has considerable counterplay & is reliant on her early game dominance being successful to carry the momentum to the mid-game to win before late-game hits.

 

Wildsoul has an issue of being too binary in terms of his performance casual games vs. competitive games. He can easily get 800 GPM and steamrolls in regular TMM at various skill brackets. Until these heroes can have their problems solved more appropriately (in terms of a minor/major rework or otherwise), their frustration levels will be adjusted by whatever means necessary regardless of the statistics (see old Nitro, old Adrenaline, Shadowblade, etc.)

 

Also, next time don't make an account to insult the game designers & developers outright.

Edited November 29, 2020 by ElementUser

[yornuz 12]

Can we have the x7 silver again please? Or ar least x6? I was waiting this feature since HoNiversary

[Nbidjr 7]

Bad patch. Lord salforis nerf without buff attack damage. Lord salforis already weak since reworks staff effect. Hero like panda and deadwood already owning lord in midlane now the hero got nerf on 2nd skill

[blackdaffy 1]

Seems like Dutch cried a lil bit too much about Wildsoul after getting stomped every 2nd game.

Yet again, leaving Ophelia/Drac untouched, while nerfing a hero that its played by 5% of the players base xD.

Thanks for not nerfing a 55% winrate Oogie and nerfing Wildsoul for the 5th time in a row.

[MacroHard 151]

Amazing work as always, particularly the bug fixes.  Stronger differentiation between Frontwolf/Frostfield and Mad Mage/Frostfield very nice.  I am looking forward to the new Grimoire as well.

Adding a recipe to Ring of Teacher is a lifesaver for me, personally, as I frequently combined it unintentionally while buying guardian ring and scarabs independently for different items.

 

edit:  Do I have to replace my 10 year old icon with Pegasus Boots now?

Edited November 29, 2020 by MacroHard

[ElementUser 839]

20 minutes ago, Diabetis said:

I'd agree with him about ophelia and wildsoul. In higher game, chance that ophelia carries the early and midgame is many many times higher than wildsoul actually getting to 600+ gpm and carrying the game. Ophelia needs to be adressed as it's imo the strongest hero in the game.

edit: also you are contradicting yourself because old Nitro was also a high skill cap hero, it had many counterplays and it was never above 45% winrate. And it was heavily nerfed before eventually getting reworked

also he is about right on Ophelia's winrate in tournaments and scrims because it's either a 1st ban or a 2nd ban in every game. For a REASON.

As a designer, you have to weigh multiple factors differently depending on the problems that are being perceived/caused:

 

- Frustration factor

- Skill floor

- Skill ceiling

- Consistency (in this case, Nitro's consistency was poor because ping was a huge factor that affects this hero moreso than others)

 

Just to name a few. I was not contradicting myself, more like there was no need to explain every inkling of detail in a public post.

 

I have not personally seen Ophelia being banned in tournament often. To showcase this example, I literally looked at the HoNCast VOD today: 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/819704706?collection=_QN4_Tx-ShaG6Q

 

Only in 1 game (out of the 6 or so I viewed) was Ophelia picked. Ophelia was not banned in any other of the games I looked at when I was clicking through to look at the hero picking phases. So again, where are you getting your stats?

Edited November 29, 2020 by ElementUser

[crispcakes 0]

Flint Beastwood

Hollowpoint Shells
- Bonus Physical Damage increased from 15/30/45/60 to 20/40/60/80.

Dead Eye
- Now grants allies within 900 radius a 25/50/75/100% chance to gain True Strike.
* Level 4 of the ability is considered to grant True Strike.

+ The True Strike aura mechanic was taken from Arachna's Precision to give Flint Beastwood a little bit more of a reason to be picked in games.
+ Flint Beastwood also got a small power boost on Hollowpoint Shells to keep up with the power level of today's meta.

Will Flint still gain extra attack range with dead eye? If that's the case, you essentially just gave him a free savage mace, wish is absolutely ridiculously broken. I can simply not understand how you can deem that balanced. Flint is already picked a lot, with a decent winrate. Doesnt need true strike. If the attack range is lost, then I can get behind this change.

Edited November 29, 2020 by crispcakes

[Thessaloniki 36]

Very nice patch, guys!!! Have to agree a bit with the others saying Ophelia is a tad too strong. I watch What you Gots YouTube channel for some scrim commentary sometimes and Ophelia is, in many cases, either banned or picked. Nonetheless, still very nice I love playing the hero!!!

Saphirez made the thread about the flash sales. Will we get a list at some point? Like what's available on the 1st and so on.

[ElementUser 839]

Just now, `_support said:

Very nice patch, guys!!! Have to agree a bit with the others saying Ophelia is a tad too strong. I watch What you Gots YouTube channel for some scrim commentary sometimes and Ophelia is, in many cases, either banned or picked. Nonetheless, still very nice I love playing the hero!!!

Saphirez made the thread about the flash sales. Will we get a list at some point? Like what's available on the 1st and so on.

"In many cases, either banned or picked" is a much better statement than "getting banned or picked every 1st to 2nd game". At the very least, there is a much lesser chance of exaggeration of your statements.

 

Saphirez will update his thread, possibly MotD & post a new forum thread as he does the flash sales. You don't have to worry about that.

[LokiAuric 8]

Oh no, the Rampage ulti change made it in

[FanOfWoop 1]

1 hour ago, ElementUser said:

Where are your statistics for her so-called 95% win rate in tournaments?

 

Ophelia is considered a high skill cap hero, and she is currently deemed as fine. She also has considerable counterplay & is reliant on her early game dominance being successful to carry the momentum to the mid-game to win before late-game hits.

 

Wildsoul has an issue of being too binary in terms of his performance casual games vs. competitive games. He can easily get 800 GPM and steamrolls in regular TMM at various skill brackets. Until these heroes can have their problems solved more appropriately (in terms of a minor/major rework or otherwise), their frustration levels will be adjusted by whatever means necessary regardless of the statistics (see old Nitro, old Adrenaline, Shadowblade, etc.)

 

Also, next time don't make an account to insult the game designers & developers outright.

First of all, let's not forget that last patch, directly(with the camps exp changes) and indirectly (with the hatchet nerfs, because Wildsoul was buying 2 hatchets, 1 for him self and 1 for booboo,  you made Wildsoul deal 25 less damage(in words TWENTY FIVE) to the jungle creeps) you have already nerfed Wildsoul a lot.

Second of all, Wildsoul has a much bigger skillcap than Ophelia, because except the need of micro, for Wildsoul you also need to master your MACRO and know jungle rotations as it is 10 times harder to jungle with Wildsoul as it is to jungle with Ophelia. Also Wildsoul has 0 ganking potential in the first 10 minutes, while Ophelia can basically win 2 lanes for your team without any problems. For that reason, if you gank Wildsoul in the jungle early, the hero is completely useless as he can't influence the game in any other way. Also the need of microing for Ophelia is also lower, as even if you don't master that skill, you will still be useful in the game as you can take 3 creeps and right click the enemy towers with little to no counterplay to that if the enemies don't have the heroes to counter a pushstrat and also with globally assisting your teammates with your ulty.

As for the 800 GPM argument, you can only accomplish that if you are completely uncontested in the early game/early mid game and if you buy a farming item and that also comes with a price as:

-You give complete freefarm to your enemy carry because you are a nonfactor in the early game (he is far more likely to get 800 GPM than Wildsoul)

-You soak almost all the farm from your own carry, in some cases making him completely useless

While Ophelia can both boost his own carry GPM by minimum of 200 by taking all the towers and creating space in the earlygame, and soak farm from the opponents carry from reducing his space to farm by taking his towers in the early game, and forcing him to join fights extremely early. Let's not forget that Ophelia is maybe the beast teamfight presence hero as he has 3 creeps with auras and also builds a lot of auras/teamfighting items, while Wildsoul is a nonfactor in the fights until the lategame. And you aswell beg the question, why is Draconis not being nerfed/made completely useless like Wildsoul(trust me he will be if you nerf him) as he can get 800 GPM a lot easier than Wildsoul, requires 0 skillcap (especially compared to Wildsoul), can gank, is the best hero for defending towers and is a really great teamfight presence hero?

After all, there is a reason why the hero has 40% winrate in TMM, 0% pickrate in scrims/tournaments, while Ophelia has the top winrate in the game, both in TMM and in tournaments, as you see the hero getting picked/banned in every or every 2nd game in which a team has an Ophelia player.

To finish it off with the "frustration" factor, I think it is a lot more frustrating seeing Ophelia taking all your towers and winning 2 lanes in 90% of the games before 20 minutes, than it is having opponents Wildsoul hitting jungle creeps and soaking farm from his carry. Also I don't have any agenda towards either one of the heroes, as I am both a Wildsoul and an Ophelia player and I play them quite often in the 1900 mmr bracket.

Edited November 29, 2020 by FanOfWoop

[Mr`Cactus 47]

@FanOfWoop i think your explaination here is perfect, couldn't say it any better

[Putin_P1dor 1]

good patch

thank u, guus

[FanOfWoop 1]

15 minutes ago, Diabetis said:

yeah pretty good explanation, altho I'd say that ophelia is harder to micro than wildsoul. But let's say it like this, it's harded to play ophelia to the fullest potential, but if you play both heroes at 50% of their capability, ophelia is 5x stronger... Don't need to explain it any further as you said most of the stuff that it should be said.

800 gpm agrument is kinda weak because in that case, salomon should be the first hero to be nerfed. Hero can be contested and be 900 gpm minute 25. With ease

I am actually amazed that they decided to nerf him, because I was honestly expecting a buff to Wildsoul especially after his numbers dropped a lot since the hatchet nerfs, as now sometimes you need to buy up to 2-3 health potions to sustain Booboo in the earlygame(up to level 5 or 6).

I guess for some people the 112th hero in hero usage statistics and 137th in the terms of winning percentage out of 139 heroes is a bigger problem than the hero with the best winrate in the game for a year now.

Edited November 30, 2020 by FanOfWoop

[blackdaffy 1]

We will still find a way to abuse WS ! @FanOfWoop

[FanOfWoop 1]

@blackdaffyNah, the hero is horrible now and will be unplayable after the nerf, It's time for the certain someone that vouched for his nerfs to experience playing against Ophelia and Draconis every game now

[w3_StarBoy 12]

Goodbye Carrier-rampage

You was fun, at least!

[BR`sensation 0]

I believe a revert to original WS would be best, a hero that was more flexible and useful without needing the ability to have inflated xpm and gpm 

[Rezziedahl 16]

I'm surprised people are upset over WS not getting any buff. It's quite obvious to me that he's gonna get a rework, so any attention and effort to buff/nerf/reevaluate current WS would be wasted.

 

Just forget the hero exists for a couple patches.

[Ladonien 15]

It is odd that Wildsoul gets a nerf when he has underperforming for a long time, except there are exceptions when he had enough space for first 20 mins.

 

But most of the time, that is not the case. Usually the team is losing so hard that the enemy team has the advantage and roams around the map and players on your team says stuff like this:

 

 

 

[GoochMeister 3]

I think people are overlooking how massively overpowered the barbed armour change is. (Think about interactions with barrier idol, or with stacking loads of armour on tanky heroes)

I'm also annoyed because now I have to stop calling people idiots for getting it on armadon and legionnaire lol

[Ladonien 15]

Additionally, I am surprised how hard Shadowblade got with his nerf on W.

While it may make sense for farming neutrals in the woods, it was primarily used to kill 3x ancients early and was one of those heroes that could solo Kongor with lifesteal.

Before he gets cleaver, he is quite hard to reach high GPMs with, and it seems like you are nerfing his weakest part as he is one of the hardest carries in the game but with compensation on having weaker ability to flashfarm.