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4.9.0 Patch Notes - HoNmas 2020 Discussion


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Merry HoNmas everyone!


I cant believe we can gift again!!

Will be eager to send my friends some love 😄

We got some big and fun looking changes!

I love the visuals and new concept of frostwolf skull

Sapphire Ult a little bit faster! ^-^

Puppet passive atk speed combined with elder parasite will be nice !

 

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Where are your statistics for her so-called 95% win rate in tournaments?   Ophelia is considered a high skill cap hero, and she is currently deemed as fine. She also has considerable counter

2 patches ago: Lets kill Shadowblade. 🤮 1 patch ago. Lets bring him back. 😍 Current patch: Lets make him support? semi carry? do not allow him scale - something that he was meant to be? scalea

First of all, let's not forget that last patch, directly(with the camps exp changes) and indirectly (with the hatchet nerfs, because Wildsoul was buying 2 hatchets, 1 for him self and 1 for booboo,  y

The things that I really like are: Frostfield change/nerf, Aluna Q nerf, Hypercrown activate - nerf, calamity W nerf (even tho I think it needed to be more heavily nerfed), shellshock roll adjustment, Pebbles early game semi nerf, Artillery's increased ability to farm with Q. etc.

Other stuff is okay or decent, but I don't understand the thought process behind some changes like.

1. Making ophelia's pact cost less gold as it's an item that every support will always get and sup gets rewarded for doing stuff he gonna do regardless.

2. Insufficient Oogie nerf, I think hero is too strong in the current meta and needed to be touched a bit more. (also at 55.5% winrate)

3. Wildsoul constant nerf. Why is this hero still being nerfed in almost every patch, I don't see much success when people are playing it and it's currently sitting at 41% winrate.

I don't see winrate as the main balance point but, more like an indicator if the hero goes terribly wrong or if the hero is super strong like oogie in this case. I know that winrate doesn't always matter that much but when a hero is at 55% winrate or probably much higher in higher game, then smth needs to be adressed.

But overall solid patch, can't comment on the reworks, will try them asap.

Also will those new alts be available in plinko, if not, please enable them.

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20 minutes ago, FanOfWoop said:

Can we get an explanation why is the 40% winrate Wildoul with 0% pickrate in scrims/tournamets getting a nerf, while the 60% winrate Ophelia with ~65%+ ban/pickrate and 95% winrate in tournaments is left untouched yet again?

Where are your statistics for her so-called 95% win rate in tournaments?

 

Ophelia is considered a high skill cap hero, and she is currently deemed as fine. She also has considerable counterplay & is reliant on her early game dominance being successful to carry the momentum to the mid-game to win before late-game hits.

 

Wildsoul has an issue of being too binary in terms of his performance casual games vs. competitive games. He can easily get 800 GPM and steamrolls in regular TMM at various skill brackets. Until these heroes can have their problems solved more appropriately (in terms of a minor/major rework or otherwise), their frustration levels will be adjusted by whatever means necessary regardless of the statistics (see old Nitro, old Adrenaline, Shadowblade, etc.)

 

Also, next time don't make an account to insult the game designers & developers outright.

Edited by ElementUser
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I'd agree with him about ophelia and wildsoul. In higher game, chance that ophelia carries the early and midgame is many many times higher than wildsoul actually getting to 600+ gpm and carrying the game. Ophelia needs to be adressed as it's imo the strongest hero in the game.

edit: also you are contradicting yourself because old Nitro was also a high skill cap hero, it had many counterplays and it was never above 45% winrate. And it was heavily nerfed before eventually getting reworked

also he is about right on Ophelia's winrate in tournaments and scrims because it's either a 1st ban or a 2nd ban in every game. For a REASON.

Edited by Diabetis
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Seems like Dutch cried a lil bit too much about Wildsoul after getting stomped every 2nd game.

Yet again, leaving Ophelia/Drac untouched, while nerfing a hero that its played by 5% of the players base xD.

Thanks for not nerfing a 55% winrate Oogie and nerfing Wildsoul for the 5th time in a row.

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Amazing work as always, particularly the bug fixes.  Stronger differentiation between Frontwolf/Frostfield and Mad Mage/Frostfield very nice.  I am looking forward to the new Grimoire as well.

Adding a recipe to Ring of Teacher is a lifesaver for me, personally, as I frequently combined it unintentionally while buying guardian ring and scarabs independently for different items.

 

edit:  Do I have to replace my 10 year old icon with Pegasus Boots now?

Edited by MacroHard

Toxicity breeds toxicity.  Break the cycle.

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20 minutes ago, Diabetis said:

I'd agree with him about ophelia and wildsoul. In higher game, chance that ophelia carries the early and midgame is many many times higher than wildsoul actually getting to 600+ gpm and carrying the game. Ophelia needs to be adressed as it's imo the strongest hero in the game.

edit: also you are contradicting yourself because old Nitro was also a high skill cap hero, it had many counterplays and it was never above 45% winrate. And it was heavily nerfed before eventually getting reworked

also he is about right on Ophelia's winrate in tournaments and scrims because it's either a 1st ban or a 2nd ban in every game. For a REASON.

As a designer, you have to weigh multiple factors differently depending on the problems that are being perceived/caused:

 

- Frustration factor

- Skill floor

- Skill ceiling

- Consistency (in this case, Nitro's consistency was poor because ping was a huge factor that affects this hero moreso than others)

 

Just to name a few. I was not contradicting myself, more like there was no need to explain every inkling of detail in a public post.

 

I have not personally seen Ophelia being banned in tournament often. To showcase this example, I literally looked at the HoNCast VOD today: 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/819704706?collection=_QN4_Tx-ShaG6Q

 

Only in 1 game (out of the 6 or so I viewed) was Ophelia picked. Ophelia was not banned in any other of the games I looked at when I was clicking through to look at the hero picking phases. So again, where are you getting your stats?

Edited by ElementUser
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Flint Beastwood

Hollowpoint Shells
- Bonus Physical Damage increased from 15/30/45/60 to 20/40/60/80.

Dead Eye
- Now grants allies within 900 radius a 25/50/75/100% chance to gain True Strike.
* Level 4 of the ability is considered to grant True Strike.

+ The True Strike aura mechanic was taken from Arachna's Precision to give Flint Beastwood a little bit more of a reason to be picked in games.
+ Flint Beastwood also got a small power boost on Hollowpoint Shells to keep up with the power level of today's meta.

Will Flint still gain extra attack range with dead eye? If that's the case, you essentially just gave him a free savage mace, wish is absolutely ridiculously broken. I can simply not understand how you can deem that balanced. Flint is already picked a lot, with a decent winrate. Doesnt need true strike. If the attack range is lost, then I can get behind this change.

Edited by crispcakes
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Very nice patch, guys!!! 🙂 Have to agree a bit with the others saying Ophelia is a tad too strong. I watch What you Gots YouTube channel for some scrim commentary sometimes and Ophelia is, in many cases, either banned or picked. Nonetheless, still very nice I love playing the hero!!! 😄

Saphirez made the thread about the flash sales. Will we get a list at some point? 🙂 Like what's available on the 1st and so on. 🙂

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Just now, `_support said:

Very nice patch, guys!!! 🙂 Have to agree a bit with the others saying Ophelia is a tad too strong. I watch What you Gots YouTube channel for some scrim commentary sometimes and Ophelia is, in many cases, either banned or picked. Nonetheless, still very nice I love playing the hero!!! 😄

Saphirez made the thread about the flash sales. Will we get a list at some point? 🙂 Like what's available on the 1st and so on. 🙂

"In many cases, either banned or picked" is a much better statement than "getting banned or picked every 1st to 2nd game". At the very least, there is a much lesser chance of exaggeration of your statements.

 

Saphirez will update his thread, possibly MotD & post a new forum thread as he does the flash sales. You don't have to worry about that.

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Isn't it a frustrating factor that hero with 3 strong minions who stun/slow, give you aura buffs, roam on you minute 6. Completely demolish your lanes in the early game.

Ophelia was always strong, but it became really good after the introduction of aura's on neutral creeps that can really affect the teamfight, also the addition of staff of the master, which can even be really strong late in the late game, so it can't be said that Ophelia falls of in the late game. She still remains very strong as you can build aura items on her, buy a staff and give it to an ally hero. And if your creeps die too easily in the teamfight, you can use them to split push. Supportive and protective items are kinda in the meta so she and Oogie really thrive on it

Talking about winrate and pick % in scrims and tourney games. Ophelia is banned in every scrim when team g00d is playing, always the 1st ban. Today it was picked only once if I'm not wrong in the tourney and I'd say it completely crushed the game. ofc I cannot calculate the exact winrate in the tourney, old honcast crew had that option, but I've only remember that Ophelia's line up lost once (again I could be wrong)... even with all the statistics aside, I think the hero should really be much weaker.

EDIT: my point is... the hardest hero in the game shouldn't be close to the best hero in the game. It was never the case in the past until recent years.

What I'd recommend is. When she takes over a creep, make it that it takes 2x more dmg from enemy heroes, so it's basically like the newest parasite. So it's a bit easier to defend against her, Ophelia's ult is already too much because it heals them to full, even if you use plenty of nukes on their creeps. Maybe also make it so alch bones cannot be used on their creeps so it evens it out. Just my suggestion

Edited by Diabetis
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1 hour ago, ElementUser said:

Where are your statistics for her so-called 95% win rate in tournaments?

 

Ophelia is considered a high skill cap hero, and she is currently deemed as fine. She also has considerable counterplay & is reliant on her early game dominance being successful to carry the momentum to the mid-game to win before late-game hits.

 

Wildsoul has an issue of being too binary in terms of his performance casual games vs. competitive games. He can easily get 800 GPM and steamrolls in regular TMM at various skill brackets. Until these heroes can have their problems solved more appropriately (in terms of a minor/major rework or otherwise), their frustration levels will be adjusted by whatever means necessary regardless of the statistics (see old Nitro, old Adrenaline, Shadowblade, etc.)

 

Also, next time don't make an account to insult the game designers & developers outright.

First of all, let's not forget that last patch, directly(with the camps exp changes) and indirectly (with the hatchet nerfs, because Wildsoul was buying 2 hatchets, 1 for him self and 1 for booboo,  you made Wildsoul deal 25 less damage(in words TWENTY FIVE) to the jungle creeps) you have already nerfed Wildsoul a lot.

Second of all, Wildsoul has a much bigger skillcap than Ophelia, because except the need of micro, for Wildsoul you also need to master your MACRO and know jungle rotations as it is 10 times harder to jungle with Wildsoul as it is to jungle with Ophelia. Also Wildsoul has 0 ganking potential in the first 10 minutes, while Ophelia can basically win 2 lanes for your team without any problems. For that reason, if you gank Wildsoul in the jungle early, the hero is completely useless as he can't influence the game in any other way. Also the need of microing for Ophelia is also lower, as even if you don't master that skill, you will still be useful in the game as you can take 3 creeps and right click the enemy towers with little to no counterplay to that if the enemies don't have the heroes to counter a pushstrat and also with globally assisting your teammates with your ulty.

As for the 800 GPM argument, you can only accomplish that if you are completely uncontested in the early game/early mid game and if you buy a farming item and that also comes with a price as:

-You give complete freefarm to your enemy carry because you are a nonfactor in the early game (he is far more likely to get 800 GPM than Wildsoul)

-You soak almost all the farm from your own carry, in some cases making him completely useless

While Ophelia can both boost his own carry GPM by minimum of 200 by taking all the towers and creating space in the earlygame, and soak farm from the opponents carry from reducing his space to farm by taking his towers in the early game, and forcing him to join fights extremely early. Let's not forget that Ophelia is maybe the beast teamfight presence hero as he has 3 creeps with auras and also builds a lot of auras/teamfighting items, while Wildsoul is a nonfactor in the fights until the lategame. And you aswell beg the question, why is Draconis not being nerfed/made completely useless like Wildsoul(trust me he will be if you nerf him) as he can get 800 GPM a lot easier than Wildsoul, requires 0 skillcap (especially compared to Wildsoul), can gank, is the best hero for defending towers and is a really great teamfight presence hero?

After all, there is a reason why the hero has 40% winrate in TMM, 0% pickrate in scrims/tournaments, while Ophelia has the top winrate in the game, both in TMM and in tournaments, as you see the hero getting picked/banned in every or every 2nd game in which a team has an Ophelia player.

To finish it off with the "frustration" factor, I think it is a lot more frustrating seeing Ophelia taking all your towers and winning 2 lanes in 90% of the games before 20 minutes, than it is having opponents Wildsoul hitting jungle creeps and soaking farm from his carry. Also I don't have any agenda towards either one of the heroes, as I am both a Wildsoul and an Ophelia player and I play them quite often in the 1900 mmr bracket.

Edited by FanOfWoop
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yeah pretty good explanation, altho I'd say that ophelia is harder to micro than wildsoul. But let's say it like this, it's harded to play ophelia to the fullest potential, but if you play both heroes at 50% of their capability, ophelia is 5x stronger... Don't need to explain it any further as you said most of the stuff that it should be said.

800 gpm agrument is kinda weak because in that case, salomon should be the first hero to be nerfed. Hero can be contested and be 900 gpm minute 25. With ease

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15 minutes ago, Diabetis said:

yeah pretty good explanation, altho I'd say that ophelia is harder to micro than wildsoul. But let's say it like this, it's harded to play ophelia to the fullest potential, but if you play both heroes at 50% of their capability, ophelia is 5x stronger... Don't need to explain it any further as you said most of the stuff that it should be said.

800 gpm agrument is kinda weak because in that case, salomon should be the first hero to be nerfed. Hero can be contested and be 900 gpm minute 25. With ease

I am actually amazed that they decided to nerf him, because I was honestly expecting a buff to Wildsoul especially after his numbers dropped a lot since the hatchet nerfs, as now sometimes you need to buy up to 2-3 health potions to sustain Booboo in the earlygame(up to level 5 or 6).

I guess for some people the 112th hero in hero usage statistics and 137th in the terms of winning percentage out of 139 heroes is a bigger problem than the hero with the best winrate in the game for a year now.

Edited by FanOfWoop
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I'm not amazed because it's been happening for some time. I've opened atleast 3 posts talking about Ophelia and how strong it is. I've tried it myself and I've only been winning. Think I lost 2 times out of 20 and all in higher games. And when I'm against Ophelia I feel like the players are playing it extremely poor. They are lvl 6 at 10 mins and they still crush the game which is incredible. Didn't play WS in some time as I feel it's super bad of a hero. You can be free farming and power farming, but if you get caught once in first 20 mins, game is just over cuz you are usually higj level and you will be dead for a long time. And that was when WS was much stronger and still bad imo. Now after 5 nerfs and an upcoming nerf, idk... really don't see any logic behind it. @FanOfWoop

Edited by Diabetis
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