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I would like to take a moment to talk about Bloodborne Maul.

I personally love the design of the item - it's gritty, savage, red, metally, and it fits a strength hero to wield it. Even the philosophy behind it - pure strength item, health/damage focus, and you gain damage as you take punishment - perfect.

However - there are a few, in my opinion, design miscalculations and changes over the years that hinder the item from reaching its true potential.

 

 

 

Let me explain it from my perspective;

Issue #1: The item is a late-game item, meaning you will probably get it AFTER you have a methods of farming creeps/neutrals quickly - meaning - the increased damage from punishment taken from creeps/neutrals is redundant in achieving higher farm potential.

Issue #2: The heroes that truly shine with the item can not fully utilize or synergize with the item properly in a manner that feels organic. Examples: Maliken ultimate not counting towards the charges, Insanitarius self-inflicted damage not counting towards the charges, Accursed's Cauterize not triggering the 4 second timer before charges begin to expire / damage prevented by Fire Shield / Flame Consumption does not count towards charge generation. All of the above makes the item feel incomplete, unable to achieve its true purpose.

Issue #3: The item is powerful. I have tested it personally, and I think so personally. When at full charges - I would prefer this item over Riftshards for reliable sustainable DPS. However - You can't properly pre-charge the item before a fight with a 4 second timer ( and relying on neutrals/creeps/kongor to charge it seems ridiculous from a design standpoint), and from experience with the item usage - the true moment where it shines most; is the moment where it is not needed any longer. From experience, it usually reaches full charges towards the end of a teamfight, and the point where you needed it most was the point where it wasn't fully there.

 

 

 

My take on reaching resolution: The damage is ok. The damage is there. Reaching it in a reasonable manner is difficult, too difficult, in fact, which turns many people away from this item.

- Changing the timer from 4 seconds to 10 seconds perhaps? I don't think it's going to change anything, as pre-charging it is not the issue.

- Raising the damage from 150 to 250 to make it more attractive? The problem still remains - you won't be able to utilize the damage when you need it most.

- Allowing self-inflicted damage from insanitarius/Maliken ultimate/prevented damage/blocked damage to count towards the charges? That sounds more like it.

 

 

 

 

However - the last statement, the one which will probably solve the main issue with the item, raises another issue - it might turn the item into over-powered, it might be too easy to sustain full 150 charges at all times. Therefore, we also need to address this future problem:

- Lowering the damage cap from 150 charges to 100 charges? It will still be too easy to sustain and reach the max charge cap.

- Self-inflicted damage and prevented damage only counting at 33% of value towards charge generation? It will take longer to reach, but still easy to maintain max cap.

- Self-inflicted damage and prevented damage counting towards charge generation as long as there is at least one enemy hero within 500 radius? That sounds like a step in the right direction.

Basically, the above suggestions create a situation where you can't pre-charge Bloodborne Maul, you can only begin fully charging it while engaging the enemy, you can utilize innate hero abilities and synergize with them and with other items; creating a situation where if it doesn't shine most when you truly need it, it at least feels worthy of its item slot.

- It is possible to further balance out the suggested changes via hard caps, such as maximum 30, 40 or 50 charge/sec charge gain to prevent Maliken reaching maximum charges instantly using his ultimate, or Accursed ultimate allowing him to reach maximum charges quickly and free of charge.

 

 

 

The above will allow Bloodborne Maul to feel more practical, synergetic, and a worthy pick over other items - but not as far as to always pick it over anything else.

I hope this thread will create a change, as I personally love the item - and I am aware of the upsides and downsides the item has. I will still continue using it even in its current state, but I am aware that it could be much better than it is.

Edited by Lunarios
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I agree with most of the points but I haven't used it enough to comment.

I do think self damage needs to be looked at somewhat, mainly due to heroes like Ra, Maliken and Accursed who can easily proc it and keep it maintained. I'll definitely come back to this thread.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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The problem of this items is how you save the charge, not how you get charge. This is why only heroes who can deal damage why taking (self) damage can use this item.

My suggestion is this item should have the active skill that sacrifice owner's HP to get charge, and gain back the HP as hp regenation in 10 seconds.

For example:

 - Active to sacrifice 10% of owner's current HP. Gain charge equal to Hp lost, regen 2% Hp lost per seconds in 5 seconds, During the HP regenation time, taking 1 damage to self to prevent charge lost

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The problem of this items is how you save the charge, not how you get charge. This is why only heroes who can deal damage why taking (self) damage can use this item.

My suggestion is this item should have the active skill that sacrifice owner's HP to get charge, and gain back the HP as hp regenation in 10 seconds.

For example:

 - Active to sacrifice 10% of owner's current HP. Gain charge equal to Hp lost, regen 2% Hp lost per seconds in 5 seconds, During the HP regenation time, taking 1 damage to self to prevent charge lost

The thing is, I have used this item extensively for purposes of testing it out, and each time I have encountered a major issue - I could not get it fully charged without nearly getting myself killed by diving head-first into 5 enemies, many times I did get myself killed trying to charge it.

 

However, I would be happy with this, since it would help the item to become better. 10% of HP as charges, and extra timer duration? nothing to complain about. + it avoids entirely the issue of self-inflicted damage from heroes/items and having to account for each and every interaction from them.

Edited by Lunarios
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Maul used to drain your Health when you attacked with it, triggering it's own charges.

I don't know when it was removed but honestly with some tweaking it could come back.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Maul used to drain your Health when you attacked with it, triggering it's own charges.

I don't know when it was removed but honestly with some tweaking it could come back.

Looking back at the changelog, the item has gone under many changes since it was first introduced. I don't remember this, but it had 350 charges in the past.

Looking at 350 charges from today's perspective - it seems a lot. As I personally would purchase this item over Riftshards even at 150 charges.

 

I think it's important to change it, but not change it too much - to not make it feel like it would need to be nerfed again. (Like with Gemini's SotM introduction, where the third gemini wolf was too much added damage, and it needed to by nerfed by 66.67%)

 

I think a small change, like drain 1% of max HP from self on hitting an enemy hero would be really welcome and make the item feel good. Because again, it's important for me to clarify from my perspective - The damage is there, it's perfect as it is imo (Don't forget, 150 damage that is added into the main autoattack instance and can be further increased by critical hits, it's more than enough).

 

1% of Max HP from self on hit seems balanced to me; if we take for example a super late-game hero with 2 attacks per second and 5000 Health Pool, with 1 charge per 10 HP lost, it would create a 10 charge/sec generation. It means you would gain 5 charges per hit, and take 15 seconds to reach max charges. I think that's reasonable, as we're looking at the best possible case scenario.

Hell, even 0.5% of max HP from self on hitting enemy heroes is good enough, to balance it with enemies hitting you as well. It means that as long as you are actively engaging enemy heroes, you will at least remain at your current charges and gain minor amounts of charges per hit.

Edited by Lunarios
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No one want the items make you lost Hp when you attack. This is why Bloodborne Maul never get used before. To use it, you need life steal, which is take another item slot.

The current BM can be used on any heroes, it's just not enough Survival power compare to symbol's rage

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No one want the items make you lost Hp when you attack. This is why Bloodborne Maul never get used before. To use it, you need life steal, which is take another item slot.

The current BM can be used on any heroes, it's just not enough Survival power compare to symbol's rage

What about just reversing the text description on it? Why does it have to be "When damaged"? Can't it be "When damaging enemy heroes, gain 1 charge for every 15 post-mitigation damage dealt" (ignoring splash of course)

 

Is it a possibility? Kind of fits the item name as well "Bloodborne Maul" - a Maul carrying the blood of its enemies.

Edited by Lunarios
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I dont like the ideal that BM gain charge basic on how many damage you deal on enemy heroes. It's make carry stronger but reduce the hero pool that can use BM.

Also your ideal basic favor AOE heroes or mainly Crit atk heroes such as Nomad, Berz, PM, Tarot. Those heroes already hit like a truck

 

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Increase strength to maximize the max hp increase aspect of the item, then make it give damage based on flat amount of hp missing, not %. Done.

 

Bloodborne Maul is bad because it barely gives more HP than heart (or doesn't even, don't remember), minus the regen. Essentially meaning that you don't have any reason to buy Maul, since regen = longer combat time = more damage + not dying.

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Maul gives quite some extra damage so it's not supposed to give the hp as a heart. From it's functionality it's more like a symbol in terms of HP/Str gain which would be fine. I use the item on a very few heroes such as Xemplar, Shadowblade and Berz (sometimes Ravenor) and they highly benefit from it. In general I agree that the item is only used rarely and it feels a bit incomplete. However, gaining charges too easy makes it too strong on strength carries. I don't really want to face any of these carrys at the beginning of a teamfight with full charges already.. Also I don't think it's intended that you have the items full potential right away at the beginning of a fight.

I like some of the proposes but I think that maul is very hard to balance and changes like that can easily get out of hand for certain heroes.

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I agree with everything you wrote and proposed. Quality topic and ye I agree. It's a late game item, but on every hero you can just buy something that costs around the same gold and gives you so much more. Maybe self inflicted damage by insanitarius or some other heroes should really count towards it. Good post

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The issue with Bloodborne Maul is that it's a Str item that gives amazing DPS as well as survivability. This is why the item has been nerfed & we need mechanic & numerical changes for it to be changed.

 

Needless to say, it's way too late to consider changes to the item for this upcoming patch on Dec. 1, 2020. Maybe in a future patch.

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It seems like a useless item. A hero that would get bloodbourne maul would already need to have good survivability items to handle taking that much damage to reap its rewards. If a tank is already capable of handling that kind of damage, then they would most likely buy other much better items like a sheep or bola for utility or riftshards if they really want more damage output. There's a certain point that becoming more tanky results in diminishing returns in terms of usefulness and that's why you don't see that many behemoth heart pick ups by tanks since utility items are much more impactful than just walking around doing nothing with your big health pool. 

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I still like the true damage version of this items. It make this item truly unique compare to orther DPS item
How about we give it more str or Hp but reduce the charge and revert the true damage back ?

Around 40-60 true damage per attack is fine, i guess

Edited by w3wstarboy
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I would suggest making insanitarius build into bloodborne maul. It would make insanitarius easier to justify (slots are a commodity on strength carries). Also the effects seem kind of similar (insani hurts you, bloodborne get's better when you're hurt). It would also allow for more varied balancing of the item since currently you can only tweak very few numbers. I'd suggest making it more expensive then, with insanitarius+ axe of the malphai as a recipe, this would also be a nice reflection of shroud building into genjuro.

Edited by Ironpencil
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  • 1 month later...

What about giving the item an active part, that instantly damages you for X amount of health that after that recovers over time for double the amount. Would allow for a quick damage increase under certain conditions, and could be balanced by numbers or cd

Edited by Bersk
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On 11/28/2020 at 2:54 PM, Ironpencil said:

I would suggest making insanitarius build into bloodborne maul. It would make insanitarius easier to justify (slots are a commodity on strength carries). Also the effects seem kind of similar (insani hurts you, bloodborne get's better when you're hurt). It would also allow for more varied balancing of the item since currently you can only tweak very few numbers. I'd suggest making it more expensive then, with insanitarius+ axe of the malphai as a recipe, this would also be a nice reflection of shroud building into genjuro.

I love this idea. Maliken is probably my favorite hard carry to play and with how good Tclaw + Hypercrown are currently, you're almost always worse off going even an Insanitarius anywhere in your build when you also need Whispering (or the new Elder) + Shrunken right after your farming item. And Maliken was one of the best users of Insanitarius a few years back - now it's seen on almost no one save for Berzerker and the odd Hammer (which now even Twinblades is superior on). 

More to the topic on hand, as a lot of people have suggested it's hard to find even a slot for Bloodborne on STR carries like Maliken late game, between other options e.g. Geobane/Wingbow/Critshards/Symbol/Heart/Demonic. Incorporating Insanitarius into the build-up for Bloodborne seems to be a step in the right direction to increase mid-game and late-game build versatility without significantly affecting the mechanic balance of Bloodbourne Maul that seems to be a challenge to adjust.

A typical late-game Mali build will always require the following items: Boots, Hypercrown (necessary AS boost & wave clearing), Symbol (survivability + most expensive lifesteal), Geobane (for a world teeming with Bolas, and much needed mobility + armor from AGI), Shrunken (for obvious reasons). 5/6 items are already pre-determined late game for a hero that on paper should be one of the best synergizers with Bloodborne Maul. And even then current Bloodborne is still a worse option for that sixth slot compared to: Wingbow/Savage/Critshards/Harkons and maybe even Demonic. But by incoporating Insanitarius as a build-up for Bloodborne, I can imagine a Maliken who's team is already starting to get boxed in by the enemy early game to more consider Insanitarius for dmg + survivability in earlier fights with the potential to be built up unto a solid (if not the best) late game item - Bloodborne will almost never get picked up late game, but allowing the decision to be made earlier (by choosing to go Insanitarius) and receiving a fair amount of early-mid game benefits before finishing into Bloodborne late game makes the decision a lot more palatable.

Edited by AgentZer0
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