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Changing the forrest layout a bit?


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Yo.

I don't really have many suggestions nowdays but one thing I'd like to see is a few more thick spots in the jungle. 
I feel like blink heroes have too few spots to land in nowdays and so many spots have like see through patches if not move-through-patches. You can mapclick through most place places now and losing someone with runes is harder. 

I understand its a bit more newbie friendly and if anything I'd keep many of the changes if that's the reason. But I'd add a few more places like mentioned as well. 
I just don't understand the proliferation of these rock areas either that you can see through, cant walk over and can't place wards on. 

If anything we could use more distinct trees so it's easier to see what's cut and what isn't for people who don't use mods, since using those mods does still and has always given a distinct advantage and they are legal. 



Its not a biggie, what do you guys think about this kind of part of map design? Is this relevant at all compared to the other pressing matters we have? 

Edited by Ondis
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The map has been tweaked so many times since 4.0 that I honestly think just reverting it would've been better. As I see it, the 4.0 changes were drastic decisions to bring life into the game before it collapsed completely and in my eyes it failed. This might not be the case at all, but at this point it doesn't really matter.

I haven't liked the map since 4.0 ( I'm not sure if I liked it with the kong in river either, since I barely played during that change) and instead of trying to fix it and causing new issues every patch, I'd rather see it reverted to something that works.

I get that making a major change like that again would risk chasing away people who've gotten used to the new map, but I think changing to something that has been proved to work would be better in the long run and potentially bring back old players as well.

Just my two cents. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

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I to this day can't understand why the map got changed. No one ever asked about change of the map, and yet it has been. I wound not mind  getting a nice remaster, but I personally never liked the change.

It's safe to say I got use to it now and I don't think it would be a good idea to go back

Edited by Shoy
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I quit because of the map changes and have only recently come back. Personally i'd love a hon classic queue where you queue into the old map unranked. At this point I think the fear is killing the game completely by doing a drastic change. Though if i'm being honest, i'm not sure drastic changes by reverting content would kill the game. This game is aged in ways that dota 2 and league aren't and the community still loves it. 

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4 hours ago, gowwilla said:

I quit because of the map changes and have only recently come back. Personally i'd love a hon classic queue where you queue into the old map unranked. At this point I think the fear is killing the game completely by doing a drastic change. Though if i'm being honest, i'm not sure drastic changes by reverting content would kill the game. This game is aged in ways that dota 2 and league aren't and the community still loves it. 

Really? You quit a game because of map change?

I think the map was changed because Kongor got split. I personally like the new map or atleast I don´t miss the old one.

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7 hours ago, Ondis said:

I agree its too late to go back which is why I m asking for more patches instead and thicker ones at that. This aspect has been an incremental change that can be partially reverted. What do you think? 

There's been a great amount of patches already. Many of the issues still stand (you can direct path yourself all kinds of weird ways) and everytime something is fixed, another issue is introduced. I get that it's scary to revert now, but no matter how much you polish a turd, it will always stay a turd. I am exaggerating here, but why build upon something that's flawed when you already have something that works?

53 minutes ago, ScrubFactory said:

Really? You quit a game because of map change?

I think the map was changed because Kongor got split. I personally like the new map or atleast I don´t miss the old one.

I personally don't mind the double Kongors. Neither did I mind the solo Kong with "Hellbourne advantage". The new map obviously builds on double Kongors, so I'd gladly see them go if it meant we could have the old map back.

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On 9/23/2020 at 8:52 PM, TobakaZ said:

I haven't liked the map since 4.0 ( I'm not sure if I liked it with the kong in river either, since I barely played during that change) and instead of trying to fix it and causing new issues every patch, I'd rather see it reverted to something that works.

 

 

On 9/24/2020 at 7:10 AM, ScrubFactory said:

I think the map was changed because Kongor got split.

Let me enlighten you:

The two kongors weren't the reason, they were part of the solution and the old map was proven to not work not to work.
While for most players the map looked fine, the win percentage for each team did certainly not. Hellbourne (I think) had a winning percentage of iirc around 57%! That's not "working".

So they concluded the reason for this was Kongors location and had to relocate him to balance things out. To do that they tried a lot of different map changes (in SBT) but most didn't work too well.
In addition to that, they tried to basically make "the next HoN" as seen in the short-lived PBT-version (Public Beta Test). Basically way more changes than just the map. However there were fundamental problems with PBT. Primarily the playerbase. I think you had to wait for multiple hours to get a game because people just continued to play normal games (I never publicly played PBT because even I wasn't willing to wait that long).

Everything from here on is speculation (I might even be wrong about the timing of things, but that's how I assume it happened)

PBT also include a feedback system where you were asked to tell FB what you liked and didn't like - and apparently people liked the map and the two kongors.

So since PBT didn't work out and the map had to change, they combined that and put the new map into the old game.

Edited by Manu311
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6 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

Why?

Cause following a juker has become too easy and like just less interactive.  And juking itself has partly become too easy but losing somebody completely has become harder. 

So you can juke more but its less effective and its far harder to just find a safespot. Everything has these small places you can glance into from if not move into. Also in the past a blnker could really hide in a thick spot for an ambush. Now someone can just happily stroll past and spot them. 

Its not even intentional. Since you can walk through everywhere you just take shortcuts, like the place between the easy camp and the shop for example. 

Edited by Ondis
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7 hours ago, Manu311 said:

 

Let me enlighten you:

The two kongors weren't the reason, they were part of the solution and the old map was proven to not work not to work.
While for most players the map looked fine, the win percentage for each team did certainly not. Hellbourne (I think) had a winning percentage of iirc around 57%! That's not "working".

So they concluded the reason for this was Kongors location and had to relocate him to balance things out. To do that they tried a lot of different map changes (in SBT) but most didn't work too well.
In addition to that, they tried to basically make "the next HoN" as seen in the short-lived PBT-version (Public Beta Test). Basically way more changes than just the map. However there were fundamental problems with PBT. Primarily the playerbase. I think you had to wait for multiple hours to get a game because people just continued to play normal games (I never publicly played PBT because even I wasn't willing to wait that long).

Everything from here on is speculation (I might even be wrong about the timing of things, but that's how I assume it happened)

PBT also include a feedback system where you were asked to tell FB what you liked and didn't like - and apparently people liked the map and the two kongors.

So since PBT didn't work out and the map had to change, they combined that and put the new map into the old game.

Sounds like even more of a shit show than I could've imagined. I don't know what the majority of players think of the new map (many players are already too far gone to bring back), but as you said, most players thought the old one was fine. I know that hellbourne had a higher win percentage, but that never bothered me and I'm sure a lot of players feel the same way. In my eyes the old map "worked" a lot better than the new one ever will and frankly I'm getting tired of having to adjust to new paths every patch.

Anyway, there's no point in arguing further since the chance of something coming out of it is basically 0. I just wanted to show that there are those who'd like the old map back with the slim chance of sparking an action. And then again, even if the will to revert the map was there, it would probably be too much of a risk to make that big of a change again.

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6 hours ago, ElementUser said:

You know how pictures speak a thousand words? 

 

This is one of those times the saying applies - without pictures and examples, it's pretty difficult to know what you want and where you want them. 

I'll leave the details up to you

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Compared the Midwars map and the FoC map and create more patches with as thick or nearly as thick trees as the Midwars map, or rather replace those patches that are very loose. I mean what, the examples are many.

Top left side on Legion side is super loose.

Bot side on Legion side.

The ability to move behind the shop on the Legion side.

The hellbourne in general has very few thick forrest patches in the middle, such as mid-ways top has become far more loose. Etc. 


The one I kinda like is the one at top tower on HB where you now need to cut a bit less to go through. 

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11 hours ago, TobakaZ said:

I don't know what the majority of players think of the new map (many players are already too far gone to bring back), but as you said, most players thought the old one was fine.

Odd, you can say that most players thought the old was fine but for some reason you cant tell what most players think of the new map. I don´t think players were even thinking about Hellbourne having a higher win percentage and it´s not their job, it´s the job of the balancers. If they have identified it as a problem which needs to be fixed then by all means, let them fix it. I personally do not want old map back. I don´t understand people who are willing to spend 10 years on the same map without any changes to it. It sounds like insanity.

18 hours ago, Ondis said:

Also in the past a blnker could really hide in a thick spot for an ambush

I´m pretty sure there are a lot of places you can hide to ambush enemy players.

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3 hours ago, ScrubFactory said:

Odd, you can say that most players thought the old was fine but for some reason you cant tell what most players think of the new map. I don´t think players were even thinking about Hellbourne having a higher win percentage and it´s not their job, it´s the job of the balancers. If they have identified it as a problem which needs to be fixed then by all means, let them fix it. I personally do not want old map back. I don´t understand people who are willing to spend 10 years on the same map without any changes to it. It sounds like insanity.

I´m pretty sure there are a lot of places you can hide to ambush enemy players.

I think it's harder to guage how the community feels about the new map as a player because it's a smaller community. Playing the same exact map over and over isn't unheard of or weird just think of chess, checkers, csgo(dust2 players). The maps slowly get learned and exploited in different ways(cut this tree to do this, walk here for this kind of sight, follow this juke path). I remember on hellbourne side you could go to the top forest and cut a tree to open a new juke path. As far as a higher win% for one side( hellbourne at I think you guys said +7%) does 7% really effect the enjoyment? In chess white has an advantage for being first. If we lowered that 7% to 4-5% with patches over time I think it would have been great. I really loved the old map but if we're going to stick to the new one I would love if they made the trees more dense, maybe in the 64 bit client.

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 @Scrub I feel that there are too many places where someone casually mapclicking can walk over you now or see you by walking past various areas that now have very loose placement of the trees


I agree with the post above more or less. Though I think this can be modified even without increasing any winrates for either team. 

Edited by Ondis
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not only the map but the bases,
now is harder to place a ward without the enemy noticing. old map was a classic that was taken away by FB just trying too hard to change what the players since beta days were ok with.


and also de fog one inside their base and fountaineven to catch kills (which i have been ok with since dota 2000s)

Edited by rest
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Christ, why would you add the lava at top tower. This is the kind of stuff im talking about. Nobody asked for this. What is this?

Map had a charm b eing a bit different Legion vs Hellbourne. Just because bot has a section like that,  doesn't mean top should, especially considering the dynamic of that forrest and how it's worked for so long. 

People pick a bit differently and play a bit differently around it. 

 

EDIT: you mention its pathing issues. Never had any pathing issues there except being "stuck" and wiggling around in the forrest. Which is fun, the kind of randomness where you will go, the chance to lose someone there but also be caught. Those are the kind of spots im talking about are fewer and fewer. The places where you need to cut a lot to be able to move but if you cut a lot you can make some nice moves. 

Edited by Ondis
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Well, until you actually provide screenshots (and tell the dev what you want), there's no chance I'm looking into this because you're still vague as to what you want.

 

Basically, if you want something to have a chance at getting done, at least follow the steps they request if they are interested to see more.

 

There's nothing for me to argue because your sentiments at the moment don't make sense & are super subjective. It's like saying "why change X" when there is no good reason for you to say it otherwise in your current post. It's just emotional ranting.

Edited by ElementUser
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Anyone else but EU not understanding what I mean? 


I don't have access to an older client anymore to provide a comparison and I feel my descriptions are fine. 

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

Here's an attempt but obviously its hard to do this since the old map has changed in layout too. Dunno how it cant be clear. 


I like the change south of the lava tho but i have no idea when that happened.  (You cant go through the bend anymore but can instead hide in it. )

Edited by Ondis
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