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Magebane Rework - poll to gather opinions


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5 hours ago, Ondis said:

That active would increase the skill ceiling a lot, which in general Im in favour of but we may have been adding too much spice to too many heroes lately.

Anyway it makes for quite an interesting hero. But the CD of 3 Sec is just too fast. Too much to keep track of his shield that often in a team fight. 

I'd make it every 10 seconds at most, while keeping some limited level of magic aura shield like +1/2/3/4

So he still has nomads ult as a core skill with way less cd...

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Anti-mage and hard carry will always be oxymoron. A hard carry will be anti-mage by default in the late game, if he's a hard carry there's no niche for anti-mage. Magebane is just a hero with blink an

My original premise:  Quoted below: ___ Would you want to see Magebane reworked? This is a more sensitive question that I'm asking because it is in fact an original DotA port.  

I would suggest just a minor rework to E, as it is currently very one-dimensional and uninteresting. Either an aura that deals damage to enemies depending on spell mana cost (like before) or an a

Once again, I believe magebane is fine, his ultimate is probably even way too strong even.

If you want magebane to be played more, just address some of the many broken heroes instead.

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5 hours ago, MerryHONmas said:

So he still has nomads ult as a core skill with way less cd...

That spell works different. It doesn't do the massive damage, it doesn't return damage + stun as a huge AoE. It simply returns the current spell back IF timed properly. Only the activation mechanics are similar. Regardless of that the spell fits better to magebane than to nomad anyway. 

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I don't think spell return is even possible with the current script available.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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8 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

That spell works different. It doesn't do the massive damage, it doesn't return damage + stun as a huge AoE. It simply returns the current spell back IF timed properly. Only the activation mechanics are similar. Regardless of that the spell fits better to magebane than to nomad anyway. 

I agree completly, if anything, nomad should get his ultimate changed and not have that be a reason for magebane not to have such an ability.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Hubaris said:

I don't think spell return is even possible with the current script available.

It shouldn't be too complicated as negation effect currently exists on nomad ultimate, but perhaps an early iteration if the script happens to be impossible or too difficult to make, could be giving him a Spell Negation (simliar to what nullstone does) but for any spell, would make magebane suitable for many lineups, and a bit easier to lane early game and survive mid game, while still relying on your reflexes to use the spell in time or die.

The hero doesn't need to become easier, it is made to be a very hard hero to play due to Magebane being so weak early game, but this shield would potentially make it more viable instead of a hero that 99% of the games gets stomped or suffers greatly while still relying on the player skills.

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No. No. Current magebane getting something that counters the entire hero pool that use single target or projectile is stuff of nightmare.

Slippery afk farm hero with innate superior Nullstone, bleh.

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That's like saying nomads ult would counter everything. Ichor had the possibility to transfer debuffs so this is available.

There are plenty of instant stuns/hex/mana sunder etc. abilities that can't be dodged (a nullstone would counter those). 

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Nomad ult, on a basic skill slot, on a hard carry that has blink, is insane and would counter nearly everything, yes. The only reason Nomad is not broken with his ult is because he has nothing else going for him except invisibility. Imagine nomad blinking in, decking you in 3 hits and everything you manage to throw at him in that short time frame is "NO RETREAT"ed, and then blinking out.

Magebane already needs to have his hp so low to compensate, he needs to be able to be killed easily if caught, that's his counter. You want to put on him something that not only nullifies incoming spells, but also reflects it, so on top of survivability it's even more damage/cc. Unlike nomad's ult that forces you to stay still for 1s, AM's shield doesn't even hinder his movements.

This concept might be acceptable in dota, but it's ludicrous in HoN.

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On 10/27/2020 at 10:14 AM, hegelsohn said:

That spell works different. It doesn't do the massive damage, it doesn't return damage + stun as a huge AoE. It simply returns the current spell back IF timed properly. Only the activation mechanics are similar. Regardless of that the spell fits better to magebane than to nomad anyway. 

so if it returns a deadwood ult, isnt that massive burst plus a stun?
and that on a couple of seconds cooldown only...
Nomad ult is super easy to circumvent due to the animation.
And the ult already is considered "garbage" by alot of people due to how terrible it's circumstances are.
If it now gets bested by a E that has not even 10% of its cooldown....
it may work for dota, but if this ever makes its way into hon, even on "10 seconds cooldown" thats the moment for me to realise that people still ahvent learned that hon and dota are not the same, never been, never will be.
Moraxus has that as an ability that absorbs a magic projectile or single target spell once every 15 seconds. it ABSORBS it, aka nullifies...
With all due respect but this is probably the hardest fucking NO ill ever give personally.
Before anything remotely like that should ever be considered, other heroes need "fixing" first.
Magebane is one of them. but that sort of ability shouldnt not happen until then. period.

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22 hours ago, MerryHONmas said:

so if it returns a deadwood ult, isnt that massive burst plus a stun?
and that on a couple of seconds cooldown only...
Nomad ult is super easy to circumvent due to the animation.
And the ult already is considered "garbage" by alot of people due to how terrible it's circumstances are.
If it now gets bested by a E that has not even 10% of its cooldown....
it may work for dota, but if this ever makes its way into hon, even on "10 seconds cooldown" thats the moment for me to realise that people still ahvent learned that hon and dota are not the same, never been, never will be.
Moraxus has that as an ability that absorbs a magic projectile or single target spell once every 15 seconds. it ABSORBS it, aka nullifies...
With all due respect but this is probably the hardest fucking NO ill ever give personally.
Before anything remotely like that should ever be considered, other heroes need "fixing" first.
Magebane is one of them. but that sort of ability shouldnt not happen until then. period.

This post is about magebane but your point is understandable, thought Magebane is probably the weakest hard carry in the game, due to it being a only Late Game hero, when HoN games usually don't get there or if they do get there the mid game and early game are too difficult for magebane to even be considered a possibility.

Other than that, the thing is, magebane shield would be much harder to use than nomad or moraxus shield, you can still be sheeped, stunned, etc. But it gives him the extra kit to survive if you're skilled enough to use it in time while still being a carry with very low hp, regardless of armor having such low hp and being a carry that has little to no presence in early and mid stages of the game, he still gets murdered if you don't use the spell properly.

In comparison if you want to compare dota and hon, in dota Antimage is rarely used just like in hon due to antimage requiring a lot of farm to get online, despite having this shield, you rarely see any non skilled player used it properly, you see players bait the shield or simply people that use it for no reason at all. Yes returning a deadwood ultimate would be huge, yet it's not as easy to do so with the shield in mind and I'll explain why:

Moraxus Shield vs Magebane Shield proposition
Moraxus - Activate to absorb an ability or magic projectile targeted against Moraxus in the next 2.5 seconds. Mana Cost 50, cooldown (30/25/20/15) seconds

Moraxus gains a {0,15,20,25,30}% Bonus to All Damage dealt, {0,200} Movement Speed and {0,40,60,80,100}% Slow Resistance for 6 seconds.

Magebane - Active to gain a shield that absorbs and returns the magic spell targeted against Magebane in the next 0.8 seconds. Mana Cost 50, Cooldown (15,13,11,9)

 

Nomad Ultimate vs Magebane Shield proposition

Nomad - On activation, enters a 1 second state of ascension. If struck by an attack or spell during this state, the Nomad counterattacks with a massive shockwave, inflicting 2 seconds Stun and 250 / 500 / 750 Magic Damage. Mana Cost (100/125/150) Cooldown (60/50/40) seconds

Magebane - Active to gain a shield that absorbs and returns the magic spell targeted against Magebane in the next 0.8 seconds. Mana Cost 50, Cooldown (15,13,11,9)


Keep in mind that this would mean Magebane now has a mechanic that allows him to lane better against certain heroes, but not against all heroes, also if played against these certain heroes it would depend on him using the spell wisely, because if you waste it you would die right after.

The concept of changing Magebane is to make him viable to pick in both regular and competitive games, not to make him broken.
I'd love to hear more about these doubts, so I can probably suggest something better but as far as now I believe this would be the best thing for Magebane while keeping his essence.

 

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On 10/28/2020 at 2:16 PM, MerryHONmas said:

so if it returns a deadwood ult, isnt that massive burst plus a stun?
and that on a couple of seconds cooldown only...
Nomad ult is super easy to circumvent due to the animation.
And the ult already is considered "garbage" by alot of people due to how terrible it's circumstances are.
If it now gets bested by a E that has not even 10% of its cooldown....
it may work for dota, but if this ever makes its way into hon, even on "10 seconds cooldown" thats the moment for me to realise that people still ahvent learned that hon and dota are not the same, never been, never will be.
Moraxus has that as an ability that absorbs a magic projectile or single target spell once every 15 seconds. it ABSORBS it, aka nullifies...
With all due respect but this is probably the hardest fucking NO ill ever give personally.
Before anything remotely like that should ever be considered, other heroes need "fixing" first.
Magebane is one of them. but that sort of ability shouldnt not happen until then. period.

I said in an AOE (as nomads ult deals damage in a cone). I also said that the numbers obviously have to be different as those are Dota2 numbers which will not fit to HoN. I just like the idea of the spell and at least in Dota it works kinda well and fits to magebanes kit. Imagine higher CDs or simply the debuff/stun being reflected, and the damage being absorbed - it could be tweaked in many different ways.

It was an option to show that mage doesn't need a full rework or a transition into a strength hero to become viable. He can outfarm every other hardcarry but lacks teamfight potential and survivability early on. A well placed E on lane could lead to a counter initiation rather than having a boring laning phase farming for 35min to be a viable hero. It simply adds variety to the hero without fully changing him into something that he wasn't intended to be in the first place.

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The issue is not whether or not magebane is viable, but whether or not he's frustrating to play against, that's the reason he's currently not viable. He's put below the winrate curve, it's intentional. Point of pushing for a rework is to make the hero balance without raising frustration level of everyone involved.

If you are putting him up there again, by making him even more frustrating to play against, then it's a no no. Don't use dota as a reference, that game is now so far gone you can't compare it to HoN anymore. That game tolerates designs such as techies and tinker, which is why i don't play it.

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17 hours ago, Rezziedahl said:

The issue is not whether or not magebane is viable, but whether or not he's frustrating to play against, that's the reason he's currently not viable. He's put below the winrate curve, it's intentional. Point of pushing for a rework is to make the hero balance without raising frustration level of everyone involved.

If you are putting him up there again, by making him even more frustrating to play against, then it's a no no. Don't use dota as a reference, that game is now so far gone you can't compare it to HoN anymore. That game tolerates designs such as techies and tinker, which is why i don't play it.

I'm very confused about your post, if possible please explain how magebane is frustrating to play against? or how it would become frustrating to play against if he had a shield that would depend entirely on player skill to be useful?

I don't believe putting any hero below the winrate curve is intentional, it simply happens due to balance, every X amount of time, balance occurs to change the meta of the game, having the same meta all the time can become boring.

The point of reworking heroes is to innovate or fix mechanics that are currently not useful in the meta and can't become useful at least IMO.

He used to be very strong due to stats, he was the only hero that had above 500 hp at start with decent armor that gained 4.5 agi per level, which at the time was completly broken, stat gain is one of the strongest mechanics in HoN.

Again your frustration fact is not understandable, magebane is frustrating to play not to play against, he currently get stomped by any dual lane whatsoever, you can lane 2 carry heroes against magebane and still own him.
DotA is used as a reference for changes conserning heroes whether you want it or not, the same as they used hon for reference to change things, this is because both games are born and made from the same exact game, while both have taken different paths in their balancing.

Take in consideration that this post is not about what a player tolerates from DotA or not, this is about making Magebane Viable to be picked without being absolutely stomped.

 

15 hours ago, behrad said:

but they cant make it exactly like dota antimage cause u request.

No one is asking to make magebane exactly like dota antimage, nor would it happen even if someone requested it.

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How about the fact the ElementUser himself said some heroes are ok to have lower winrates. Any hero can be viable if you buff the numbers enough, but we don't do that, mostly.

Magebane is a hero that avoids all conflicts, playing hide and seek the whole game until he's an unstoppable 6 slotted machine. Forcing 5 enemies into chasing him, and 4 teammates into buying him time. That's one thing i don't want to experience, but you're entitled to your preferences.

This particular change you want would increase frustration a lot, because it's gonna make Magebane even more slippery, more difficult to shutdown, narrowing the hero pool that is effective against him, resulting in an even harder to win game of hide and seek, and a cancerous pub game environment that forces you to hard counter this hero every game should he be anywhere close to 50% winrate.

HoN and Dota now contain a massive amount of subtleties that render most comparisons pointless: power levels, available mechanics, skill interactions, design philosophy, even down to the length of cast time and general game speed. You are talking about a hero with 3s cooldown 1.2s duration super nullstone that is somehow not totally broken. If that doesn't tell you not to compare the 2 games i don't know what does.

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entirely different approach:
(plese excuse the simplicity of my post)

Q rework:
Now burns Mana based on 5% of the attacked heroes Max Mana plus 0.5/1/1.5/2 times their Intelligence (numbers for display).

This ensures that heroes with generally low int or manapool will be punished less than high int/mana heroes such as pyro, dr, parallax and so on. Basing it on max Mana for a core amount and on intelligence will make sure of that, rather than having a base amount of mana burnt plus max mana. it also means that heroes that build mana items that re not int based (many ring for example) do not get punished as severly which gives heroes with low manapools a better stance against magebane.

E rework:
Now has an active.
Bans 12.5/15/17.5/20% of the Mana burnt through Q for 10 seconds after which it will slowly be regained. Banned Mana is unavaillable for the duration and can not be used nor restored.
-OR-
Target an opponent hero to appliy "Weakened Mind" to them for 10 seconds as a state.
"Weakened Mind" reduces a heroes Manaregeneration from all sources (except potions!) by 50%.
22 seconds cooldown

The idea here is to punish heroes that rely on their massive Manapool, such as Parallax and Doctor Repulsor or Oogie, and make them more vulnerable if they allow the Magebane to attack them. As currently their excessive manapools in lategame make them vulnerable to magebanes ultimate but way too often despite his blink they can either outregen him or outposition him.

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2 minutes ago, MerryHONmas said:

entirely different approach:
(plese excuse the simplicity of my post)

Q rework:
Now burns Mana based on 5% of the attacked heroes Max Mana plus 0.5/1/1.5/2 times their Intelligence (numbers for display).

This ensures that heroes with generally low int or manapool will be punished less than high int/mana heroes such as pyro, dr, parallax and so on. Basing it on max Mana for a core amount and on intelligence will make sure of that, rather than having a base amount of mana burnt plus max mana. it also means that heroes that build mana items that re not int based (many ring for example) do not get punished as severly which gives heroes with low manapools a better stance against magebane.

E rework:
Now has an active.
Bans 12.5/15/17.5/20% of the Mana burnt through Q for 10 seconds after which it will slowly be regained. Banned Mana is unavaillable for the duration and can not be used nor restored.
-OR-
Target an opponent hero to appliy "Weakened Mind" to them for 10 seconds as a state.
"Weakened Mind" reduces a heroes Manaregeneration from all sources (except potions!) by 50%.
22 seconds cooldown

The idea here is to punish heroes that rely on their massive Manapool, such as Parallax and Doctor Repulsor or Oogie, and make them more vulnerable if they allow the Magebane to attack them. As currently their excessive manapools in lategame make them vulnerable to magebanes ultimate but way too often despite his blink they can either outregen him or outposition him.

I like the idea of the "Weakened Mind" but to be fair, magebane is fairly strong lategame, and this spell would most likely buff his late game, which is not a problem, due to magebane rarely getting to magebane as magebane loses the game during mid game most of the times.

On 10/30/2020 at 7:51 PM, Rezziedahl said:

How about the fact the ElementUser himself said some heroes are ok to have lower winrates. Any hero can be viable if you buff the numbers enough, but we don't do that, mostly.

Magebane is a hero that avoids all conflicts, playing hide and seek the whole game until he's an unstoppable 6 slotted machine. Forcing 5 enemies into chasing him, and 4 teammates into buying him time. That's one thing i don't want to experience, but you're entitled to your preferences.

This particular change you want would increase frustration a lot, because it's gonna make Magebane even more slippery, more difficult to shutdown, narrowing the hero pool that is effective against him, resulting in an even harder to win game of hide and seek, and a cancerous pub game environment that forces you to hard counter this hero every game should he be anywhere close to 50% winrate.

HoN and Dota now contain a massive amount of subtleties that render most comparisons pointless: power levels, available mechanics, skill interactions, design philosophy, even down to the length of cast time and general game speed. You are talking about a hero with 3s cooldown 1.2s duration super nullstone that is somehow not totally broken. If that doesn't tell you not to compare the 2 games i don't know what does.

"How about the fact the ElementUser himself said some heroes are ok to have lower winrates. Any hero can be viable if you buff the numbers enough, but we don't do that, mostly"
 

+In fact, heroes have been buffed in dumb ways to make them be picked which I consider not to be the correct approach but that's fact talking, such as mk, mq, bombardier among other heroes, but it's not intended to make a hero below realistic winrate such as magebane and shadowblade, nontheless shadowblade is strong enough during most of the stages of the game so he seems fine, perhaps it's more of a difficult hero to understand for low tier players, which is not the case for magebane, his kit is too weak in any tier from bronze to immortal games.

"Magebane is a hero that avoids all conflicts, playing hide and seek the whole game until he's an unstoppable 6 slotted machine. Forcing 5 enemies into chasing him, and 4 teammates into buying him time. That's one thing i don't want to experience, but you're entitled to your preferences."

+ Incorrect he doesn't avoid any conflict during laning phase, take in consideration he gets obliterated in lane unlike any other carry, even silhoutte has a better time in lane, then during mid game his kit only allows him to speed farm, but blink is easily stopped by stunning or silencing him, and currently there's way too many ways to kill him, you rarely need more then 2 heroes to kill magebane early or mid game, im kind of confused about that statement, other than that, 4 teammates buying time for carries is a common practice for several carry heroes not just magebane, except magebane like moon queen snowball and get out of hand if allowed, but mq can potentially kill enemies with a spell, while magebane can only blink away and has very low hp, if he gets jumped or whoever ganks him has a blink aswell which you can purchase or have a way to stop him like magmus stun, glad W, witch sheep, witch stun, polly sheep, polly stun, bomb stun, cthul stun, lode stun, parallax silence, vindi ult, vindi silence, puppet grab, puppet show, gauntlet hook, gauntlet ult, prisioner ball, devo ult, I could go all day explaining how to kill magebane because it's rather easy in comparison to other heroes, if you gank a TDL mid game, as 2 you get oblitered and give him a double kill.

"This particular change you want would increase frustration a lot, because it's gonna make Magebane even more slippery, more difficult to shutdown, narrowing the hero pool that is effective against him, resulting in an even harder to win game of hide and seek, and a cancerous pub game environment that forces you to hard counter this hero every game should he be anywhere close to 50% winrate."

+ He is currently not slippery, I'm sorry but I don't understand how he is slippery, silhoutte is x9999 more slippery than this hero, nomad, scout too and again I could go all day giving examples, and yes the idea of this change is to narrow the huge hero pool that is effective against him while not making is impossible, since his shield isn't so easy to pull off or effective at all against other heroes. Hide an seek is the normal snow ball carry way to play, unless you pick an early team fight hero you are doing that all the time so that confuses me greatly, the point is not to make magebane picked every game since he would be countered every game anyway and still decrease in win %, in fact, there was a time when klanx was broken due to his powerful early mid and lategame capacities, yet he got countered in many ways, but this change doesn't seek him being powerful but allow him to live against certain heroes at least giving him a chance. Other than that, pub games are already cancerous if you wanna put it that way, I haven't seen anyone bellow legendary to know what role purpose is, or how to pick in the picking phase, so if you take that as your position then, most carry heroes are broken and cancerous.

"HoN and Dota now contain a massive amount of subtleties that render most comparisons pointless: power levels, available mechanics, skill interactions, design philosophy, even down to the length of cast time and general game speed. You are talking about a hero with 3s cooldown 1.2s duration super nullstone that is somehow not totally broken. If that doesn't tell you not to compare the 2 games i don't know what does."

+ I agree both games are different but still both use each other as base to compare new posibilies and you see it on the new items like the apple or the stone that gives you mana instantly or the bounty runes here called merricks bounty, you have to accept that both games will always be linked in a way despite how far each other may go, due to them being literally an upgraded version of the same game,  I believe you haven't read everything I said before, I agree that giving magebane the exact same shield that antimage has would probably be overwhelming in HoN, so I posted a reference of how I believe it should be, this is still a mechanic that should be tested in order to calculate the correct cooldown and reach, 3 seconds cooldown 1.2 duration may be too much In hon yes, so I ask again please go read my posts again you'll find where I explained about it, In DotA it's not broken because the shield isn't enough to make antimage live, sure you return a big nuke of 600 damage back to the enemy but you're still getting stunned by someone else and dying, costing the game potentially for you team, as dying more than 3 times as carry is most of the times game over. It clearly looks like you hate DotA, but this approach is not about hating other games, it's about seeking ways to improve heroes and evolve.

 

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Alright we're not getting through to each other.

You didn't refute the fact that it's intended for Magebane to have abysmal winrate. EU recent also said he's fine with Nomad as is (low winrate, fine as is due to design flaws), taking that into account i'm certain Magebane's case is the same.

Yes magebane gets blown up by literally everything, hence avoiding all conflict being his playstyle, you made my point while saying it's incorrect.

How is a hero with literal 6s blink not slippery, whether or not another hero is more slippery one way or another is not the point.

And lastly, my point was just because something exists in dota doesn't mean it should exist in HoN.

Honestly it's a pain to read a rant that goes here and there without driving the point home. Let's just focus on the topic at hand. I'm saying my piece that is unless it's a rework, Magebane shouldn't be buffed to be as strong as other heroes.

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9 hours ago, Rezziedahl said:

Alright we're not getting through to each other.

You didn't refute the fact that it's intended for Magebane to have abysmal winrate. EU recent also said he's fine with Nomad as is (low winrate, fine as is due to design flaws), taking that into account i'm certain Magebane's case is the same.

Yes magebane gets blown up by literally everything, hence avoiding all conflict being his playstyle, you made my point while saying it's incorrect.

How is a hero with literal 6s blink not slippery, whether or not another hero is more slippery one way or another is not the point.

And lastly, my point was just because something exists in dota doesn't mean it should exist in HoN.

Honestly it's a pain to read a rant that goes here and there without driving the point home. Let's just focus on the topic at hand. I'm saying my piece that is unless it's a rework, Magebane shouldn't be buffed to be as strong as other heroes.

I agree that certain heroes are below win rate due to their difficult kit, but never should they be below win rate due to being flawed in design, that is a bad mistake from those who designed it and one of the reason why reworks or tweaks are made.

It's most carry heroes playstyle that's what I said in short.

Sure he's slippery if you compare him with no one, but we're talking about balance and changes and when that happens you compare heroes and come up with ideas, I'm only suggesting that, probably there are better options but his main concern is survivility early mid game, that should not be stats or a spell that gives him armor, it should be hard to use to remain a difficult hero to play.

I have been trying to only go to the point, but clearly it's not enough because I see random comments without facts supporting them, I've read 90% the posts here saying "too broken" "hell no, too cancer", so I give examples for those who can't think ahead.

Going to the point at hand, changing magebane into a str hero would most likely be broken like most reworked heroes (too strong early game, gets out of hand mid game, takes no effort to play, etc) or be completely useless (does no damage, doesn't have a team fight kit or lanning kit, only focuses on bothering enemies but not really negatively, etc) , killing the hero essence, while the hero kit is fine as is, simply needs a bit more survivability, I have not seen anyone give one reason that is good enough to say magebane should get reworked instead of getting a survival buff. Had I seen one I'd definetly take that into consideration.

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I agree that reworks fail a lot to fix these issues because they tend to kill the "unique" feel of the hero, for something that might be potentially more balanced but simply isn't fun to play.  (The deadlift rework reminds me of this, as well as the recent nitro one).     I prefer heroes that have very unique strengths and weaknesses, and forcing all heroes to be equal kind of sucks.  

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53 minutes ago, JungleTBmeta said:

I agree that reworks fail a lot to fix these issues because they tend to kill the "unique" feel of the hero, for something that might be potentially more balanced but simply isn't fun to play.  (The deadlift rework reminds me of this, as well as the recent nitro one).     I prefer heroes that have very unique strengths and weaknesses, and forcing all heroes to be equal kind of sucks.  

I agree with this, each hero has their own.
If anything the only thing that should change is a buff that doesn't change the hero uniqueness or nothing at all.

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If you want magebane to be more active early on, all he really needs is a slight buff to his ulti on lvl 6. The main reason you see him not being used as much on lvl 6 is because the ulti barely does anything. But i am not personally a huge fan of magebane being viable from lvl 6 to the end.

You kinda have to choose imo. Either he is a carry, or he is not. 

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On 11/9/2020 at 9:03 AM, Anubis2108 said:

If you want magebane to be more active early on, all he really needs is a slight buff to his ulti on lvl 6. The main reason you see him not being used as much on lvl 6 is because the ulti barely does anything. But i am not personally a huge fan of magebane being viable from lvl 6 to the end.

You kinda have to choose imo. Either he is a carry, or he is not. 

I agree, he shouldn't get online early, considering his kit it would be too strong, not enjoyable for anyone to be honest.
Perhaps there are other ways to make him have a better survivability kit, to allow him to lane and sustain himself  better without becoming overpowered in lane, goal should be to make him viable in more games without making him broken.

IN short like any other carry, plus and cons that balance the hero, instead of too many cons =/

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My thoughts mainly going from ElementUser's post:

Personally, I think people are looking into the "anti-caster" theme too much for Magebane. A hero who is functionally better in the late game but is supposed to be a counter to early game heroes is an oxymoron, yes. But I don't think Magebane needs to shift gears just to fill his "intended" purpose. Besides, we have other heroes that can do that. Balphagore has a Silence and his ult gets stronger against heroes that dump their mana pool fast. Moira has a skill that counters spam casting.

Personally, I'm for the group that suggests keeping Magebane's blink. In terms of the "feel" of the hero, it's probably the most important thing about it. His other basic skills are mostly numbers and don't really contribute to the "feel" of his playstyle,and his ult is more of an afterthought of keeping with his theme than an essential part of his playstyle. I don't think most people play Magebane just to be able to nuke someone with his ult.

The biggest problem area for Magebane IMO is his E. This is the skill is arguably the most "anti-caster" thing about him, but it makes him a nightmare to balance. It makes him tankier against early-game casters, which as a carry benefits him because it makes it less likely for him to die before he can blink away to safety. The balance issue is that Magebane wanting to counter casters by design and casters wanting to counter carries are at complete odds against each other. That being said, attaching his survivability entirely on his blink apparently wasn't the best idea either, considering he used to have Flash give magic armor and it didn't work out entirely well.

As for Mana Combustion and ult, they work with each other on paper, but in practice it's kinda wonky. The rate of which Magebane can burn mana is proportional to his scaling, not just from levels on his skills, but more importantly his attack speed, and this problem used to be worse when it only burned a flat amount of mana. This only further adds to the problem of trying to balancing him for both sides. Also the fact his Q gets no bonus damage against enemies that ran out of mana is a bit counterintuitive.

His ult is supposed to reward him for burning the enemy's mana and surviving whatever skills the enemy throws against him, but just leaves so many gaps in his kit. It puts too much load onto his Mana Combustion and magic armor to be effective, which need to be balanced around his design as hard carry. Also, it's just too one dimensional.

Magebane's kit have issues that compound on other issues. His hero design are at odds with his role in the general metagame. What we should do is change priorities.

My suggestion:

Stop focusing on trying to make him a general anti-caster hero. Trying to cover base for every type of caster while attempting to balance him as a hard carry is too much. What I think should happen is narrow down what type of caster he is effective against. If he's a hard carry, why not make him more specialized against late-game magic users instead of a generic counter to magic users? For example, make him a counter to magic damage-based carries like Ravenor and Parallax.

Some ideas I'm throwing out for the sake of balance:

* Make his damage mitigation weaker outside of an active fight. For example, have it get stronger based on how much mana spent or magic damage the opponent deals.
* Change his mitigation from damage reduction to regen. This will make him harder to outright survive a gank, but keeps him resilient late game after he starts lasting longer in fights naturally.
* Split up mana burning and his autoattack damage booster up instead of mechanically having to tie both of them together. Preferably without adding more load onto his blink.
* Mana regen and restoration is a thing, you know. Maybe have his kit interact with it in some way?
* Just rework his ult entirely. Something that help fulfill his niche instead of rewarding him for trying to fill it.
 

Edited by TheJohns
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