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Magebane Rework - poll to gather opinions


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As a spellcaster counter he might could use some kind of silence or
magic immunity like Predator has it. Also i think the old skill that passively 
damaged every use of a skill with some damage was a good idea, only not
strong enough. 

my suggestions toi change him would be like:

Q:
Have it as it is and add some Mana poison over time to it, something like 5% of the enemys mana over 3 seconds

W:
The teleport could also silence enenmys in a small radius around magebane for 3 seconds or so.

E:
I think complete magic invincibility would be too much. I would also take the magic defense it gives Magebane away instead
I would have it do superior magic damage in the number of mana cost for spells used inside the radius
Also i would give it an activation that boosts every allies magic defense in the radius  for some seconds maybe 15 or so for 3 seconds on level 4


 R:
I love magebanes ultimate, but i think the casttime is too long, if you compare it to Soulreapers ultimate.
i would make it faster. Beside that i would let it like its now. (also with the staff Upgrade)

Staff of the Master:
Should only buff his Ultimate as it already does no need to buff other skills in my eyes.

 

Maybe that can be some changes to make him deadlier against Spellcasters, i don't know
what do you guys think?

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Anti-mage and hard carry will always be oxymoron. A hard carry will be anti-mage by default in the late game, if he's a hard carry there's no niche for anti-mage. Magebane is just a hero with blink an

My original premise:  Quoted below: ___ Would you want to see Magebane reworked? This is a more sensitive question that I'm asking because it is in fact an original DotA port.  

I would suggest just a minor rework to E, as it is currently very one-dimensional and uninteresting. Either an aura that deals damage to enemies depending on spell mana cost (like before) or an a

On 9/19/2020 at 12:23 PM, ElementUser said:

Ideally, Magebane would be a Strength hero that dampens a lot of nuke & CC effectiveness for himself/his team and punish enemy casters from the early to mid game, but that in itself would be a major rework.
So to answer your question, outside of a full rework, we can only perform minor changes to the hero in terms of numbers & minor mechanics. The problem will never truly be solved unless what I say actually happens.

He's no bane to mages until late game rolls around.

Hmmm
I have to say, I agree with this analysis of the hero concept.
I think you have an accurate understanding of how he is actually played, (fast cleaver -> flash farm with blink) and how he is severely misnamed.

I'd be interested in seeing what a real anti-mage hero would look like. I feel like Magebane and Dark Lady kind of fill similar roles in terms of what their kit lets them do.
They both have:
- Damage buff for auto attacks
- Escape/mobility
Although I like TDL more for last-hitting in lane with her slow, makes her feel like a safer choice, although she's not quite as mobile.

All this said, I'm not certain if the concept of an actual anti-mage STR hero would be wise? If there's a hero whose designed purpose is to shut down mages who are only ever going to be strong in the early-mid game, I wonder if he might be too strong just by nature.
Although, after writing it out, I think you addressed this as well with the concerns over high AGI giving armor, necessitating him being a STR hero so that physical damage could still counter him.
Hmmm
I think someone else said before that Magebane's passive E could be completely changed without issue, and between that and some number adjustments could be enough to push him more towards that role?

This is the kind of design concepts I love thinking about. It kind of sucks that Magebane has that name and is probably stuck with it, I think perhaps the best solution would be to maybe give Magebane some love, rework that passive, adjust some of his numbers to make him more fun; and to then also specifically design the real Anti-Mage hero?
idk
I'd love to read suggestions for what that hero's kit might look like. It could be great to have a new more dedicated Tanky person.

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YES

  • he's boring as hell with 2 passives
  • his design theme does not match his gameplay
  • simple number tweaking can never work to address these issues, because any carry with a reliable and instantaneous escape will always be on a knife edge of balance fairnes

If you remake him, his signature feel should remain.  Mana Combustion and Flash must never go away, even if they get number adjustments or bundled with other side effects.  Master of the Mantra and Mana Rift are expendable.

Edited by MacroHard

Toxicity breeds toxicity.  Break the cycle.

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There is a reason why I stated that numbers need to be tweaked as in Dota loads of heroes are overpowered in some way. Besides that he still relies on his W and Q meaning that E will likely be the last maxxed out spell either way. It however brings some variety as with good timing this could used in an offensive manner even early into the game. And again, numbers could be totally different. Yet it would fit into mage's kit and his role as an anti mage.

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Yes. 

Hero needs atleast 20 minutes of farm, which is no fun to play as 4 vs 5 and after that it's not garantee that he will carry, because he can just "wants to farm more".
Make him some kind of inquisitor which will burn enemy witches for using spells nearby.

Here is my rework. ?

STR 25+2.5 

AGI 16+ 1.5

INT 20+2.2

Q. Burn Heretic.
Enchants a target, dealing 50/100/150/200 damage providing vision of them and Burn* effect for 4 seconds if they cast a spell or if the enchantment timer expires. 
Burn - dot 15/20/25/30 damage and 10/15/20/25% slow. 

Cooldown: 24/20/16/12 seconds. Mana cost: 75/90/105/120
SOTM Effect: Turns Burn Heretic in to Burn Heretics making in an AOE spell.


W. Holy blessing. 

Removes debuffs and disables from the target friendly unit, and grants bonus 10/20/30/40 movement speed and 30/40/50/60 health regen for a short time.

Duration: 5 seconds. Cooldown: 16/15/14/13 seconds. Mana cost: 110

 

E. Master of mantra.

Passive effect: Magebane proves he is the master of the flow of Magic around him, granting him 2/4/6/8 Magic Armor.
Active effect: Magebane activates aura which causes nearby enemy heroes to lose a 1.25/1.5/1.75/2% of their max mana every second, and Deals Magic Damage equal to 35/50/65/80% of Mana used when they cast.

Duration: 10 seconds. Cooldown: 30/25/20/15 seconds. Mana cost: 100

 

R. Iron Maiden.

Traps targetet enemy in Iron Maiden for 2/3/4 seconds dealing 70/100/130 damage per second and increasing incoming damage by 20%

Cooldown: 100/90/80 seconds. Mana cost :150/200/250.

 

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2 hours ago, DemonSparda said:

Yes. 

Hero needs atleast 20 minutes of farm, which is no fun to play as 4 vs 5 and after that it's not garantee that he will carry, because he can just "wants to farm more".
Make him some kind of inquisitor which will burn enemy witches for using spells nearby.

Here is my rework. ?

STR 25+2.5 

AGI 16+ 1.5

INT 20+2.2

Q. Burn Heretic.
Enchants a target, dealing 50/100/150/200 damage providing vision of them and Burn* effect for 4 seconds if they cast a spell or if the enchantment timer expires. 
Burn - dot 15/20/25/30 damage and 10/15/20/25% slow. 

Cooldown: 24/20/16/12 seconds. Mana cost: 75/90/105/120
SOTM Effect: Turns Burn Heretic in to Burn Heretics making in an AOE spell.


W. Holy blessing. 

Removes debuffs and disables from the target friendly unit, and grants bonus 10/20/30/40 movement speed and 30/40/50/60 health regen for a short time.

Duration: 5 seconds. Cooldown: 16/15/14/13 seconds. Mana cost: 110

 

E. Master of mantra.

Passive effect: Magebane proves he is the master of the flow of Magic around him, granting him 2/4/6/8 Magic Armor.
Active effect: Magebane activates aura which causes nearby enemy heroes to lose a 1.25/1.5/1.75/2% of their max mana every second, and Deals Magic Damage equal to 35/50/65/80% of Mana used when they cast.

Duration: 10 seconds. Cooldown: 30/25/20/15 seconds. Mana cost: 100

 

R. Iron Maiden.

Traps targetet enemy in Iron Maiden for 2/3/4 seconds dealing 70/100/130 damage per second and increasing incoming damage by 20%

Cooldown: 100/90/80 seconds. Mana cost :150/200/250.

 

Almost every hardcarry needs 20min of farm. Most of them even more to be viable. Your "rework" is basically a completely new hero and the only spell that is similar is his lackluster E ..

While the active E got some parts that I like it would be completely overpowered. 10 seconds of casters just dying without other impact. Imagine a pyro combos and just dies.. Doesn't make too much sense besides it doesn't require any skill to use..

MB is a hardcarry and I wouldn't transfer him into something else. His currently passive spells should gain a fitting active (or at least one of them) and that's about it..

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Anti-mage and hard carry will always be oxymoron. A hard carry will be anti-mage by default in the late game, if he's a hard carry there's no niche for anti-mage. Magebane is just a hero with blink and 1.45 BAT.

If we're to explore the theme he will need to be anything but a hard carry.

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12 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

Almost every hardcarry needs 20min of farm. Most of them even more to be viable. Your "rework" is basically a completely new hero and the only spell that is similar is his lackluster E ..

While the active E got some parts that I like it would be completely overpowered. 10 seconds of casters just dying without other impact. Imagine a pyro combos and just dies.. Doesn't make too much sense besides it doesn't require any skill to use..

MB is a hardcarry and I wouldn't transfer him into something else. His currently passive spells should gain a fitting active (or at least one of them) and that's about it..

Well yeah, it's a rework. Changing one skill or stat gain is not a rework.

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On 9/26/2020 at 8:55 AM, DemonSparda said:

Well yeah, it's a rework. Changing one skill or stat gain is not a rework.

Who says that? A rework can be a partial rework or anything. The main idea of this thread is making MB more viable/popular and more fun to play. Nowhere is stated that 1, 2 or more changes need to be applied or if he needs to be transferred into a strength hero which is especially for a legacy hero imho not the way to approach this change. I also didn't state that the active effect on his E would necessarily be everything that should be changed. But honestly I only see space for changes on his E and R.

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YES, I would like Magebane to be rework if only you implement most of my suggestion in here, otherwise its a NO and would rather want the hero to be deleted in the hero selection because the hero is a spawning pool of toxic META and frustration.

MB is now a STR hero
Movement Speed change to 295

Q. Mana Combustion

Auto-attacks passively burn the target's mana for an amount equal to 10/20/30/40 of target's Mana and deals 100% of mana burn from this passive as damage.
Target a Unit and burn 100/150/200/250 of its mana and deal 50/75/100/125 magic damage.

Mana Cost: 130
Cooldown: 12 seconds
Range:800


Spell Charm/Flash(Reworked)

Activate to grant yourself a Shield that absorbs 125/150/175/200 magic damage last 8 seconds.  Grants a sub skill which target a location to teletport in that location within 700 range

Mana Cost: 100/60
Cooldown:15


MASTER OF THE MANTRA

Magic Damage Received is passively convert to 25/30/35/40 as physical damage and upon receiving a magic type skill silence the area for 1 second. Silence only activates every 7/6/5/4 seconds. 

Radius: 750

 

Mana Rift
 

From 0.1 / 0.2 / 0.3 second Stun change to 0.3 second stun and increase by 0.1 second per 100 mana is missing. Max of 1/1.5/2 seconds

 

changes mentioned above will make the hero more interesting to play and more tanky against heroes that rely heavily on their active skills

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12 hours ago, hegelsohn said:

Who says that? A rework can be a partial rework or anything. The main idea of this thread is making MB more viable/popular and more fun to play. Nowhere is stated that 1, 2 or more changes need to be applied or if he needs to be transferred into a strength hero which is especially for a legacy hero imho not the way to approach this change. I also didn't state that the active effect on his E would necessarily be everything that should be changed. But honestly I only see space for changes on his E and R.

Current skill set of MB will be always boring. Legacy, shmegacy, hero has nothing but autoattack and blink, no matter how much you tweak his stats by number it will be boring, if you make number too big, it will become just OP, but OP is not always means fun.

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On 9/22/2020 at 2:34 PM, Physiker said:

I think the concept of an Antimage itself is good, however in the case of MB not fully elaborated. It feels like he is performing bad early against every other hero and if heavily farmed good against both mages, tanks, carries ect. I would like to see him being picked as a counterpick towards Parallax, Oogie, Dr ect.. while performing rather bad against hard carries as tdl, tarot ect... Somehow being a semicarry and anti mage carry ?

In order to pronounce his role one could do one (or more) of the following:

a) Make his E grant him much higher magic armor at the priece of reduced physical restiance (As his laning ability shoulndt be corrupted maybe the physical extra dmg should only be considered if it exceed 90dmg or someting, i.e. he should melt vs. a late game tdl).  

b) Reduce the flat mana burn of his Q heavily while increasing the %-part. Further one could add to Q a target spell, burning a %-piece of mana of an enemy hero. However only intellegence heroes can be targeted by the active spell. The latter would also heavily help with nullstone pickups.  

c) Q or E have an active skill where you can place a ward. The ward deals dmg proportional to the mana used. Ward needs 3 hits to die.  I think puga in Dota has something similar. 

As i said. I like the hero as it is an orginal. However maybe we can move his role away from an all around , flashfarming carry towards an specific anti mage hero. I think key to this is to change flat mana burn to % while also increasing restiance against magic dmg (so he cant be bursted by a pyro for instance) at the price of reduced late game anti carry resistance . 

I like the idea of having E increasing magic armor but reducing physical armor because it lessens the problem of having high damage reduction on both damage types, physical and magic. Let me give a simple suggestion out of the idea:

Master of the Mantra [ E ] (Completely new)

Toggle - 5/3.5/2/0.5 seconds toggle cooldown both on and off.

Toggle on to half Magebane's armor and convert them into magic armor. When toggle on, also adds additional 4/6/8/10 magic armor.

Mana combustion as an offensive ability needs some buff and the proposed armor reduction when toggling on 3rd ability reduces his survivability against enemy, especially spellcaster with high attack damage as Magebane is intended to counter. So, this suggestion is proposed to grant Magebane a bit survivability when toggling on his 3rd ability against spellcaster.

Mana Combustion [ Q ]

(The passive remains same with additional) Passively 40% of Mana Combusted regenerates Magebane's health for 3/4/5/6 seconds.

Flash also gets adjusted to reduce Magebane's flash-farm problem the original topic fleshed out and increase his intended proficiency against spellcaster by giving Flash same general parameters as Wretched Hag's Flash of Darkness and adding new effect to differentiate between those Flashes as below:

Flash [ W ]

(General parameters like cooldown, mana cost, and range are same as Wretched Hag's Flash of the Darkness) Gives a debuff for 6 seconds (doesn't stack, only refreshes) to enemy units in 225 radius to Magebane's flash destination, giving the debuffed enemy unit a stacking individually timed debuff for 3/4/5/6 seconds to increase Magebane's auto-attack damage when attacking them by 20% of initial mana they spend (I'm not sure whether mana upkeep should count or not).

Adjustments above aren't enough to change Magebane's game stage from late-game to early-mid game as the original topic explained, so stats adjustment are needed such as adding starting strength and starting armor for early-mid game benefit and reducing agility growth and normalizing BAT to 1.7 for reducing late-game potential.

In the end, this suggestion is intended to retain Magebane's identity as auto-attacker while also try buffing his intended specialty against spellcaster. That's all for now, thank you for the idea Physiker.

Edited by datfizh
rephrasing
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17 hours ago, DesoZaKiddo said:

YES, I would like Magebane to be rework if only you implement most of my suggestion in here, otherwise its a NO and would rather want the hero to be deleted in the hero selection because the hero is a spawning pool of toxic META and frustration.

MB is now a STR hero
Movement Speed change to 295

Q. Mana Combustion

Auto-attacks passively burn the target's mana for an amount equal to 10/20/30/40 of target's Mana and deals 100% of mana burn from this passive as damage.
Target a Unit and burn 100/150/200/250 of its mana and deal 50/75/100/125 magic damage.

Mana Cost: 130
Cooldown: 12 seconds
Range:800


Spell Charm/Flash(Reworked)

Activate to grant yourself a Shield that absorbs 125/150/175/200 magic damage last 8 seconds.  Grants a sub skill which target a location to teletport in that location within 700 range

Mana Cost: 100/60
Cooldown:15


MASTER OF THE MANTRA

Magic Damage Received is passively convert to 25/30/35/40 as physical damage and upon receiving a magic type skill silence the area for 1 second. Silence only activates every 7/6/5/4 seconds. 

Radius: 750

 

Mana Rift
 

From 0.1 / 0.2 / 0.3 second Stun change to 0.3 second stun and increase by 0.1 second per 100 mana is missing. Max of 1/1.5/2 seconds

 

changes mentioned above will make the hero more interesting to play and more tanky against heroes that rely heavily on their active skills

So to summarize, you want to increase strength gain, add a nuke, add a shield, add a silence, and increase the stun duration of his ultimate?

Ya nothing could possibly go wrong with that.

Toxicity breeds toxicity.  Break the cycle.

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7 hours ago, MacroHard said:

Ya nothing could possibly go wrong with that.

ofc, its a decent suggestion and the hero's stat gain should be calibrated accordingly otherwise op af..

Edited by DesoZaKiddo
poor choice of words
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Since there is a lot of spitballing going on here about the possible reworks i´ll throw in something myself but no numbers, just rough ideas.

Q - Mana Combustion

After X attacks the next attack will combust a portion of enemy mana, burning it and dealing damage based on mana burnt. This mana burn counts as "mana spent"

Autoattacks against enemies replenish small amounts of mana to Magebane

W- Flash

The same blink ability but creates a spirit of Magebane after the blink. The spirit (or ward, statue, whatever) emits an aura that causes all enemy abilities to cost more (can be % based or set amount)

Spirit is uncontrollable and immovable but can be killed in 3 hits but every hit will burn an amount of enemy mana in range of the aura. This mana burn counts as mana spent.

E- Master of Mantra

Passively grants Magebane magic armor.

Passively grants charges based on the amount of mana spent by enemies in radius, grants Magebane extra magic damage reduction based on the number of charges. Activate to consume all charges to halve current extra magic damage reduction on Magebane to grant the other half to ally heroes in range.

R- Mana rift

Stays the same.

 

So Q is still manaburn but only after certain amount of attacks (like Puppet, Kraken etc) This would make trading autoattacks with Magebane a little less costly and give some room to evade the burn all together. Replenishing part would give Magebane small amount of mana, 2/4/6/8 maybe, maybe less/more every autoattack to so he wouldnt be so mana drained as he would have 4 active abilities but only if he stays aggressive through autoattacks.

W or blink would be something similar to Pugna from Dota but instead of dealing damage based on mana spent, it would cause enemy abilities in range to be more expensive. So they either have to move out of its range or stay and use abilities with increased mana cost or destroy the ward/spirit by auto attacking it which would burn their mana with every attack. Since enemy abilities cost more or if they got mana burnt by killing the ward/spirit they would grant Magebane more charges for his E ability. Which in turn makes him more resilient against magic damage and also giving him an option to share that resilience with his team. Also if enemy abilities cost more, they run out of mana faster allowing MageBane to use his R sooner.

Thats it for now.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yes (answer still hasn't changed)

I've been reading (and remembering most of) all of the posts under this topic.
The overall concept of him being a carry seems to be the issue that most people have with him, so I'll propose a few changes in this post.

 

General
Main attribute changed to Strength (numbers should be changed).
Hero is now Hellbourne.

 

Mana Combustion [Q]
The ability increases its damage potential throughout the game and seems rather weak (damage wise) during the laning stages.
If we want Magebane to transition into more of a "bane to mages", then I'll suggest changing the ability to a more defensive one where Magebane will shine when being nearby allied heroes, while still sticking to the enemy heroes.

Suggested changes
Passive: Applies Bane of Mages whenever Magebane autoattacks a target.
Stacks up to 3/4/5/6 times. 

The ability also receives an active with the following properties:

  • Deals 75 Magic Damage
  • Target: Enemy Unit
  • Type: Magic
  • Weakens the Magic Damage of target enemy unit by 25% for 3 seconds
  • Maximum charges: 1/2/3/4
  • Range: 400
  • Mana Cost: 30
  • Cooldown: 8 seconds (2 seconds between charges)

Bane of Mages effects:

  • -7 Cast Speed Slow per stack (total of -21/-28/-35/-42 Cast Speed Slow)
  • 2.5 seconds duration that refreshes for every hit

 

Flash [W]
This ability is what I consider core on Magebane, so it will just receive a few changes to remove some of the frustrations from Magebane's current concept.

Suggested changes
Now applies Flashed in a 300 AOE upon landing. 
The following changes also applies to the ability:

  • Mana Cost remains at 60
  • Range changed to a static 800 (from 600/800/1000/1200)
  • Cooldown changed to 16/13/10/7 (up from 7) seconds.

Flashed effects:

  • Duration: 3 seconds
  • Type: Magic
  • Disarms, Silences and Perplexes visible enemy heroes for 0.1 seconds 
  • Debuffs have 25% reduced duration on Magebane and allied heroes
  • Cannot be removed/purged

 

Mana Rift [R -> E]
This ability just gets a new purpose during team fights with a slightly better disable and no damage.

Suggested changes
Moved to [E] and changed to:

  • Target: Enemy Hero
  • Type: Magic
  • Range: 600
  • No Magic Damage
  • Mana Cost: 50/60/70/80
  • Cooldown: 20/18/16/14 seconds
  • Silences, Perplexes and applies a 50% Movement Speed Slow to the target for 1.3/1.7/2.1/2.5 seconds

 

Master of the Mantra [E -> R]
The gains from this ability seems rather weak and boring. A passive 16 magic armor is nice and all, but I'd rather have it removed for something else.
I don't think reintroducing the old mechanics of only dealing damage to enemy heroes is the solution, so I'll suggest the following.

Suggested changes
Removed passive magic armor gain and moved to [R]. Can be boosted by Staff of the Master.
Magebane passively gains a shield with the following attributes:

  • Cannot be purged
  • Grants an initial 50 charges + 1 charge per second per point of Strength
  • Maximum of 300 charges
  • Ability goes on cooldown for 5 seconds when taking any type of damage
  • Each charge grants 1.0/1.5/2.0 pre-mitigation Magic Damage Shield (up to 300/450/600)
  • SoTM boost: Passively grants 30% Movement Slow Resistance on Magebane and deals damage equal to 40%/60%/80% of Mana spent to enemy heroes within 1000 range

The ability can also now be activated to apply a Magic Damage Shield to Magebane and nearby allied heroes. Has the following attributes:

  • Shield Health: 300/400/500 (increased to 600/700/800 when boosted by SoTM)
  • AoE: 600
  • Duration 12 seconds
  • Mana Cost: 150/225/300
  • Cooldown: 20 seconds (shared with the passive cooldown)

 

Just take whatever you need.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/19/2020 at 5:23 PM, ElementUser said:

Ideally, Magebane would be a Strength hero that dampens a lot of nuke & CC effectiveness for himself/his team and punish enemy casters from the early to mid game, but that in itself would be a major rework.

This would be awesome.  You're talking about making him an early high-risk/secondary initiator.

How about his flash has a ranged 2s silence, 300 units radius?

Nerf his scaling so you'd be forced to trade off carry-potential for initiation/survivability.

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On 9/24/2020 at 5:50 AM, hegelsohn said:

As a legacy hero obviously mana burn, blink and the ult have to stay. I find him quite lackluster due to his E. In theory he is the carry with the fasted farming potential due to his high mobility. However, facing a proper dual lane makes it almost impossible to win the game unless the enemy team fails to finish the game before very late game.

 

Even tho I'm not a fan of Dota2 but their active ability on his E makes the hero very viable there and gives him more survivability and variety in his plays. Also, the spell fits perfectly into the hero's design and since ichor lost his unique spell to transfer back debuffs to the enemy team, I think mage could receive it. It also requires skill and good timings (could be partially compared to nomads ult or moraxus shield but it's not the very same..)"

Can be activated to create an anti-magic shell around you that sends any targeted spells back towards enemies instead of affecting you.
Cast Animation: 0+0
Shell Duration: 1.2
Cooldown: 15/11/7/3

 Obviously those numbers could be different.

+++++
I completly agree current Antimage shield is way better than hon's which would make the hero more viable, other than that, hero is still decently good against certain heroes, just like in DotA, you don't pick antimage every game, just like you don't pick magebane every game in HoN, no hero should be made so that you can pick it every game and do well.

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That active would increase the skill ceiling a lot, which in general Im in favour of but we may have been adding too much spice to too many heroes lately.

Anyway it makes for quite an interesting hero. But the CD of 3 Sec is just too fast. Too much to keep track of his shield that often in a team fight. 

I'd make it every 10 seconds at most, while keeping some limited level of magic aura shield like +1/2/3/4

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