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Magebane Rework - poll to gather opinions


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My original premise: 

Quoted below:

Quote

 

The problem with Magebane is that it's a DotA original. The hero is a carry who is supposed to be countering spellcasters, but casters are strongest in the early/mid game while Magebane currently has early game as his weakest part. This alone is contradictory to the hero's name - early game casters dominate Magebane.

Magebane's reason to be picked isn't because of his effectiveness against high-mana heroes (nor is it effectiveness against mages in general), it's to accelerate his farm speed way faster than any other hero with an early Runed Cleaver & get 1-2 more core items than other heroes for typical carry item timings.

His entire design is flawed since its conception from DotA, but because it's from DotA, we can't really change it without backlash. Not to mention that his low cooldown blink & high Magic Resistance makes him really hard to kill as an Agility carry (Agility means he has Armor), so he just can't have a moderate/high Strength growth (because it just makes the hero way too tanky against Magic & Physical Damage alike). His low cooldown blink enables the hero to do what he's picked for (the high speed farming & carry timing attack), but that + the other aspects of the hero are the exact causes of frustration.

Ideally, Magebane would be a Strength hero that dampens a lot of nuke & CC effectiveness for himself/his team and punish enemy casters from the early to mid game, but that in itself would be a major rework. So to answer your question, outside of a full rework, we can only perform minor changes to the hero in terms of numbers & minor mechanics. The problem will never truly be solved unless what I say actually happens. He's no bane to mages until late game rolls around.

Just curious, how would you guys react if Magebane actually receives some kind of complete overhaul in the distant future? I explained my reasons in my forum post above.

 

___

Would you want to see Magebane reworked? This is a more sensitive question that I'm asking because it is in fact an original DotA port.

 

Please post Yes or No with your reasonings.

 

Thanks!

Edited by ElementUser
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Anti-mage and hard carry will always be oxymoron. A hard carry will be anti-mage by default in the late game, if he's a hard carry there's no niche for anti-mage. Magebane is just a hero with blink an

My original premise:  Quoted below: ___ Would you want to see Magebane reworked? This is a more sensitive question that I'm asking because it is in fact an original DotA port.  

I would suggest just a minor rework to E, as it is currently very one-dimensional and uninteresting. Either an aura that deals damage to enemies depending on spell mana cost (like before) or an a

I don't want to see him rework either, hes really fun to play. I agree he could use some love tho, we don't see him as much anymore

I also did like him more in his early stages of the game.

Edited by Shoy
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No

Magebane doesn't need any rework. What he need is not have two passives skill with long cooldown ultimate

My Suggestion

 - Add Active skill to frist skill: Release a nova that burn mana to enemy around. Deal x damage equal to y mana burn (still have a passive burn mana on attack). Long cooldown early. No cast time

 - Third skill now have 5 level: Increase 2/4/6/8/10 magic armour.

 

 

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I bet the people who don´t want to have him reworked actually don´t play him either. There is no real point in picking Magebane, he is just weak. 

I would support a rework because I hardly see him in games and having a relic just for the sake of it is plain dumb.

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I would suggest just a minor rework to E, as it is currently very one-dimensional and uninteresting.

Either an aura that deals damage to enemies depending on spell mana cost (like before) or an aura that heals magebane for the mana use of enemies.

The magic armour could either be reattached to W after use or a passive component of E (but less than it is currently, to compensate).

 

Side note; having a powerful aura might actually make magebane less than complete trash in midwars, but I know its FoC we care about most.

Edited by TehNubZar
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Personally, Magebane is an unfun hero who makes 9 other players suffer, either make him weak or make him gone. 6s blink on a flash farming hero is pure aids. So yeah, i'm in favor of a rework or at least a rebalance to shift him to something else.

Keep everything iconic about him, a passive Q that burns mana and deal bonus damage, a blink W, and a nuke ult that's based on missing mana, yet a few numeric changes and some added features could change the hero into something else entirely. After all, the current Magebane's capacity as a hero is simply his blink. 1.45 BAT + some gimmicky bonus damage.

A few ideas on top of my head:

- Stat increased across the board, BAT normalized to 1.7. To turn Magebane into a different niche other than a super squishy carry that becomes god once he survives natural selection.

- Q burns/deals damage by 1.2/1.3/1.4/1.5 times when target's mana is greater than 60% (can be lower, depends on the average int nuker hero) of their hp (either current or max). Base value readjusted.

- W regains its AOE magic shield on cast. W giving team magic armor was a good feature that fitted his theme and promoted aggressive plays, as opposed to the passive armor that only serves the afk farming play style. Cooldown greatly increased, to both limit his flash farming and make it a greater commitment. As far as balance go we can just increase the magic armor amount until it's fair to the increased cooldown.

- E becomes activatable (then it might become Q): deals 60/80/100/120 magic damage to all nearby enemy heroes, slows them up to 20/30/40/50% for 4s based on the amount of their mana that was used/drained in the last 5s, up to 300/450/600/750 mana. Affected enemies take bonus % damage from magebane by half the slow amount for the duration.

- R, largely the same, adjusted for balance.

Overall Magebane would still be an evasive hero that chooses his battle, that can either dominate mages, or use his mobility to farm and win in later stages of the game. However his starting kit should be more well rounded and enough to be useful, and his scale ceiling should be way lower in order for it not to be an autowin option.

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How about his E upon use, decrease Cast Speed of spells by like 50% or so of enemy heroes around him. That would sound somehow interesting and unique as no other hero has something like that?

Edited by Shoy
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10 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Rather rework him, we should nerf Sand Wrath, Maliken, .... so they will be on same boat with magebane.

No need nerf sw anyway. Mb full item vs sw full item still win mb. Kill sw in early game so easy also just use hero combo stuner

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No the point of it is that casters have a window to crush him, if they don't crush him he snowballs and crushes them. That is the dynamic that's interesting, not if they scale exactly the same and counter each other somehow by who attacks first or what ever. 

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Just for posting sake, I don't think he needs a full rework but there is a lot of Design Space on his skills. E has a lot of room for growth, as can Q and W.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Mana Burn should be proportional to max mana, rather than fixed.  That way he hits casters harder but cannot instantly destroy all the mana of other str/agi heroes.

I've always felt MB counters low mana pool heroes better than casters.

 

edit:  Looks like it already does that.  That's what happens when I haven't played nor seen MB in 6 years.

Edited by MacroHard

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one of most boring hon heroes ever since beta. I agree with the post "anti mage" that cant do crap early/mid game, walking autoattacking hero. For me he could be removed entirely, I woudlnt cry at all. 

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I think the concept of an Antimage itself is good, however in the case of MB not fully elaborated. It feels like he is performing bad early against every other hero and if heavily farmed good against both mages, tanks, carries ect. I would like to see him being picked as a counterpick towards Parallax, Oogie, Dr ect.. while performing rather bad against hard carries as tdl, tarot ect... Somehow being a semicarry and anti mage carry ?

In order to pronounce his role one could do one (or more) of the following:

a) Make his E grant him much higher magic armor at the priece of reduced physical restiance (As his laning ability shoulndt be corrupted maybe the physical extra dmg should only be considered if it exceed 90dmg or someting, i.e. he should melt vs. a late game tdl).  

b) Reduce the flat mana burn of his Q heavily while increasing the %-part. Further one could add to Q a target spell, burning a %-piece of mana of an enemy hero. However only intellegence heroes can be targeted by the active spell. The latter would also heavily help with nullstone pickups.  

c) Q or E have an active skill where you can place a ward. The ward deals dmg proportional to the mana used. Ward needs 3 hits to die.  I think puga in Dota has something similar. 

As i said. I like the hero as it is an orginal. However maybe we can move his role away from an all around , flashfarming carry towards an specific anti mage hero. I think key to this is to change flat mana burn to % while also increasing restiance against magic dmg (so he cant be bursted by a pyro for instance) at the price of reduced late game anti carry resistance . 

 

 

Edited by Physiker
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Yes.

I have posted these on Discord, so here goes again:

  • How about changing his BAT when levelling up Master of the Mantra (E) to something like 1.7 (lvl 0), 1,65 (lvl 1), 1.6 (lvl 2), 1.55 (lvl 3), 1.5 (lvl 4)? It was changed from 1.45 to 1.7 in patch 4.5.5.
  • Another idea for Magebane could be that he can steal 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 mana from an enemy hero by using his Master of the Mantra [E] and reduce the vision radius of that target to 500 for 1 / 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 seconds. The target's abilities will cost 25% more mana for the duration. 25 / 50 / 75 / 100 Mana Cost (basically, giving Magebane up to 25 / 50 / 75 / 100 mana back) 20 / 17 / 14 / 11 seconds Cooldown 400 / 500 / 600 / 700 Cast Range Notes:
    • The ability will let Magebane zone out heroes that rely heavily on their mana pool and are away from their allies.
    • The suggestion includes the passive Magic Armor from the current ability.
    •  Optionally, he could get a ministun on the ability.
    • It should not unlink shared vision with allies (TDL has that as an unique attribute on her Cover of Darkness [R]).
  • For staff suggestions, I'd really like to see one of the following:
    • Mana Combustion [Q]: Now deals damage equal to 100% of the Mana burnt (up from 60%)
    • Flash [W]: Passively grants Magebane 20 / 35 / 50 / 65 extra Movement Speed (from 315 to 335 / 350 / 365 / 380).
    • Master of the Mantra [E]: Grants a 600 radius aura that increases Magic Armor of allied units by 2.5 / 4 / 5.5 / 7 (will grant Magebane 6.5 / 12 / 17.5 / 23 Magic Armor, up from 4 / 8 / 12 / 16)
    • Mana Rift [R]: The ability now calculates missing mana from enemy heroes within 600 range of target enemy hero and deals that as 100/130/160% Magic Damage to it (I personally just dislike the current Staff upgrade, so this one could be a great twist).
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Add active skill Q or E:

 - Release a shockwave , applied Mana feedback to enemy within 600 radius in 6 seconds, Affected units that use an ability will deal 20/30/40/50% of that ability's Mana cost to the caster.

Staff of the master effect: The ability become an aura with half of the radius and half the damage, (still can active to applied debuff in 6 seconds), Damage deal to caster increase to 50/70/90/110%

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Some ideas:

Mana Combustion - This ability definitely needs to be more deadly to casters rather than low mana pool heroes. I feel like playing STR heroes with low mana pool which are very mana dependent is more frustrating than playing a caster actually, casters have great mana pool and fast mana regeneration so even if its as it is for me its too bad. I rather see something like that he burns more mana the bigger target's mana pool is, it would be based on %, which means if he attacks a great mana pool hero he will burn much more mana than if he would attack 40-50% lesser mana pool target. On top of that Damage from mana burning would deal more to bigger mana pools but to a certain cap so it's not too OP. Also I'd add a stack number of ~5 to this ability, whenever Magebane attacks a creep or hero and burnt at least 1 mana he gains a stack, on his 5th attack he would instantly cast a mana burn (no cast time etc) that would burn his taget's mana equal to small % of mana gained through those 5 attacks, which means if he jumps on caster and burn a lot of mana, then his mana burn strike would be stronger than if he kept attacking low mana/low mana pool hero.

 

Blink - I see two visions of this ability:

1. Blink I - its a single ability, works just as now, area he blinked in is affected with two effects; in small radius all allied units gain some magic resist, and all enemy units have got reduced magic resistance.

2. Blink II - this is separated to two abilities; agressive and defensive blink. Agressive blink would work just like I mentioned above, it would be to blink somewhere to combat zone and provide buffs and debuffs, but defensive blink would have for example twice lower CD (actual one) and would not provide anything, but no matter which is used, it always applies cooldown to both. So you choose if you want to run faster without any benefit or go into combat and provide some buffs and debuffs. If you use Defensive Blink you apply this ability cooldown to both blinks, if you use Offensive Blink then you would apply it's cooldown on both.

 

3. Master of Mantra - I'd remove the magic resist bonus or cut it by 50% or 75%. Then I'd add active effect on this ability with pretty long cooldown. Magebane would cast a specific kind of spell around himself in his vision radius. When the ability is active then all enemy heroes in radius that cast abilities would take magic damage equal to x% of mana cost.

 

4. Mana Rift - I think i'd keep it as it is.

 

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Im usually for complex heroes but do we need to have actives on all heroes and make them "interesting" mechanically? Mage is a pretty simple hero to understand and to play and somewhat hard to master in terms of being an effective farmer. But he's a pretty easy hero overall. 

It's the same with swiftblade. Like the change to swiftblades passives isn't bad nor anything I'd complain over per sé. But its incredibly hard to notice as an opponent and it turned a kinda chill hero to someone you need to think about all the time. Its weird, again I'd usually be in favour of these kind of things. 

Maybe EU is right, lol I complain about "most" changes. But I just think that the game has a general sweet spot and some heroes should be like this. 
I agree with what people have said, he's not a very memorable hero, but again, why isn't that okay? 

 

 

One change I really liked for example was Sandwraiths change. I always liked Sandwraith but now I find him a lot more fun.  But even this hero that I really agree with the change with the illusions and everything...the old him was just so chill to play and it was kinda an interesting and unique mechanic to find and chase down lone heroes.  But even tho his new mechanic is more challenging and interactive now it's also less of a flavor addition to the game, meaning it generally just does what Geometers Bane does. 

So overall I think the change took away from the game even though it added something to the hero if this makes sense. 

Edited by Ondis
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As a legacy hero obviously mana burn, blink and the ult have to stay. I find him quite lackluster due to his E. In theory he is the carry with the fasted farming potential due to his high mobility. However, facing a proper dual lane makes it almost impossible to win the game unless the enemy team fails to finish the game before very late game.

 

Even tho I'm not a fan of Dota2 but their active ability on his E makes the hero very viable there and gives him more survivability and variety in his plays. Also, the spell fits perfectly into the hero's design and since ichor lost his unique spell to transfer back debuffs to the enemy team, I think mage could receive it. It also requires skill and good timings (could be partially compared to nomads ult or moraxus shield but it's not the very same..)"

Can be activated to create an anti-magic shell around you that sends any targeted spells back towards enemies instead of affecting you.
Cast Animation: 0+0
Shell Duration: 1.2
Cooldown: 15/11/7/3

 Obviously those numbers could be different.

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That would boost his skill ceiling a lot. Timing a 1.2 duration active. But I guess its ok. Its in the same vein as Swiftblade tho. Also it could be a bit op if someone gets really good at it? 

 

3 sec cooldown x 1.2, that's almost constant auto cast. Its like bubbles take cover but it damages the enemy. 

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