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4.8.6 - Pre-release Discussion/Speculation


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On 9/18/2020 at 2:38 PM, ElementUser said:

Look at E & how it scales

 

The hero's meant to scale partially with opponents & the hero is not expected to solo burst people down after getting level 1 ultimate. It still deals substantial enough damage to pick it up at that point of the game.

I'll just add that perhaps if they're facing Qi they should get Steamboots rather than Ghostmarches or items in general that add magic damage or attack speed rather than attack damage.  Heroes like that added new dimensions to the game. Same like Shadowblade. Same like Adrenaline : ) All nerfed now . Sigh. 

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8 minutes ago, Ondis said:

I'll just add that perhaps if they're facing Qi they should get Steamboots rather than Ghostmarches or items in general that add magic damage or attack speed rather than attack damage.  Heroes like that added new dimensions to the game. Same like Shadowblade. Same like Adrenaline : ) All nerfed now . Sigh. 

The new E factors in attack speed too. 

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Ye youre right. Im not sure how it will compare to the lack of burst but I guess I'll have to try first.

Why DPS though? It will become even weaker against heroes like Devourer then. 
Not really saying that this is a bad thing, unles someone picks Qi too early I guess, which they shouldn't.  Might be ab it newbie unfriendly.

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14 minutes ago, Ondis said:

Ye youre right. Im not sure how it will compare to the lack of burst but I guess I'll have to try first.

Why DPS though? It will become even weaker against heroes like Devourer then. 
Not really saying that this is a bad thing, unles someone picks Qi too early I guess, which they shouldn't.  Might be ab it newbie unfriendly.

Because the point of picking Qi is supposed to be countering carries. It's a more niche hero now who should excel at his role (if he doesn't we can buff that).

 

The hero's power curve is average/only slightly-above average early game (less powerful than conventional supports), a relatively weaker mid-game compared to other supports, but becomes really powerful once late-game hits.

 

Qi also has more unconventional tools at his disposal - his W's DPS is much better now & the mana cost should be more reasonable. He's less bursty against the wide spectrum of heroes now & is considered way more fair to deal with, while countering what he's supposed to counter. Who knows, maybe you guys will find a way to play him that works well.

Edited by ElementUser
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4 hours ago, Ondis said:

I guess its the same point with Qi as with Adrenaline. Where you see a lopsided hero that is either too weak or too strong I see a hero that is in perfect balance with his intended target. 
The mechanic was just unique, just like with Adrenaline, insofar as it is not based on your play but on your enemies. And in Qi's case it was a matter of keeping track of them and going for the ones with the highest Attack damage visa vi lowest healthpool. 


We'll just never understand each other EU on things like this I guess ?

 

Nice for DM to have an active again.

Overall OK changes otherwise and when it comes to the minor metrics I just never will understand your and the communities need to generally constantly tweak them (like Bubbles intelligence increase by 0.1) but that's fine, that's your job. 

 

The change makes it so Qi will now do more damage against carries and less damage against underfarmed supports...

Toxicity breeds toxicity.  Break the cycle.

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Eh. 

Say you're an underfarmed level 20 support then it would do 150x4-5 at most dmg meaning about 600-750 and that's if you combo it with your slow or someone elses slow or stun or you'd probably miss more.  - And now I'm being nice.

On average you get about 75 in damage from your levels at that point (2.5x20 + 25 to start with). Let's make it 80. In addition to that most heroes get about 30 extra damage at start. So 110.  Now you need some 64 more damage to boost it up to 174 damage that with Qi's + 20 would equal 150.5 damage. 

That's 64 in stat items by level 20 for an "underfarmed" support. 

Compare that to any other ulti. Relatively weak in terms of bursting you down. 

On the other hand it could deal some 300+ x4-5 in late game against anyone farmed. 


So I say you guys have no argument but what ever. 

Edited by Ondis
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19 minutes ago, Ondis said:

Eh. 

Say you're an underfarmed level 20 support then it would do 150x4-5 at most dmg meaning about 600-750 and that's if you combo it with your slow or someone elses slow or stun or you'd probably miss more.  - And now I'm being nice.

On average you get about 75 in damage from your levels at that point (2.5x20 + 25 to start with). Let's make it 80. In addition to that most heroes get about 30 extra damage at start. So 110.  Now you need some 64 more damage to boost it up to 174 damage that with Qi's + 20 would equal 150.5 damage. 

That's 64 in stat items by level 20 for an "underfarmed" support. 

Compare that to any other ulti. Relatively weak in terms of bursting you down. 

On the other hand it could deal some 300+ x4-5 in late game against anyone farmed. 


So I say you guys have no argument but what ever. 

That's exactly what the skill should do & what it was designed to do - I don't see the point you're making. It's supposed to be polarized towards carries.

 

Right now, Qi is either too good against a spectrum of heroes or too weak. It's hard to get an in-between because the hero's original & primary intention was to counter autoattack-based carries. I don't know if you read the patch notes or not, but the full explanation is there & I'm tired of repeating myself. I'm pretty sure it's just that your opinions are the polar opposite of the designer's & it's fine to disagree. It's not okay to say we have no argument, because that is not true (again - read the patch notes).

Edited by ElementUser
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When I was able to output 70k+ damage in a FoC game with Qi, against a team that only had one autoattacking carry, there was a problem.

As it stands now he preys on people who fail to find balance and build like a glass cannon; I think it's a good change. That doesn't even take into account the R having a AoE Disarm and Perplex, both extremely important and rare debuffs.

I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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edit: Ohhhhh. I missed the *that says that E now proccs. ?
Well I withdraw my complaint lol. 

I thought you just made the most meh ulti ever. This might even be a bit OP but we'll see how things go in playtesting. It does stand though that I think he's going to be near useless against tanks or tank based carrys that go heavy into other types of damage output tho (think Ra that is HP based for example).

So people really have to know when they pick Qi now with the DPS thing in place.  

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ondis
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Yes, but that is the idea even from the initial design (which didnt hit the mark at all, since he could, well, burst any hero). Heroes should have strengths and weakness that make you want to pick them in good situations and adapt, not just pick them and be able to snowball regarding the circunstances and the line-up of the enemy team

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19 minutes ago, Bersk said:

Yes, but that is the idea even from the initial design (which didnt hit the mark at all, since he could, well, burst any hero). Heroes should have strengths and weakness that make you want to pick them in good situations and adapt, not just pick them and be able to snowball regarding the circunstances and the line-up of the enemy team

Exactly.

 

?

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