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MerryHONmas

Skrap being underwhelming for years

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So since Skrap frequently got nerfed a few years ago, he has been sitting at the bottom of Tier lists in almost every single aspect.
He seems to be providing a little bit of everything on paper but none of that really actually seems to translate into the actual game.

For example, on Paper Morsels seem great. Bonus XP, AoE Heal...
Big surprise: impact is negligable.
The amount of XP received through Morsels is so little it only has any impact whatsoever during Midwars and even then the rest of the hero is not of much use compared to the other options.
Secondly, Vorax is just... a big creep. And this is not just ment as a joke, he has as little impact as any creep against any team that acts even remotely coordinated.

The problem with Skrap is that after his abilities got nerfed and entire mechanics were removed, he never received any sorts of compensations. And with literally one of the core designs being taken away the hero just fell into a hole of nonexistant value.
To elaborate:
Skraps core design was Vorax, the entire hero was based around assisting in Teamfights and mostly contributing by assaulting opponent fortificatoions. When Morsels no longer buffed Vorax, a huge aspect of Vorax just vanished, but Skrap never got compensated for that loss.
His healing was reduced aswell and the hero just fell into a Limbostate of submediocre existance.

Currently Vorax's only utility lies in providing splitpush utility to the team, however since he has to move along an entire lane, that provides opponents with sufficent time to react to it, and just break Vorax somewhere along the way.
Which is what makes it so underwhelming.
If you want to get value out of Vorax, you have to either follow it or push a different lane at the same time.
If you follow Vorax with your team, or rather escort it, your opponents basically are just fighting a lesser Hellbringer ultimate. Period.
If you splitpush, Vorax has to travel along an entire lane while your team is on another lane. If you push too early, your opponents simply react to your push, draw up a teamfight and if they win just move out to break Vorax before he reaches his goal or created any valu. If you push too late, your opponents intercept Vorax and then teleport back to react to you and frankly, Vorax doesn't need much attention to be brought down. That is also a Period. Two people hitting it while it bashes a few creeps is sufficent to bring it down in a couple seconds and still have time to react to your push and teleport back. No need to even break it, it will break itself once it starts hitting the tower. The only way to get value out of Vorax is to perfectly time his arrival with your initiation of a Pushup fight. and then, well, unless you have a major wave with Vorax, or the towers are low AF, he will die before he contributed much of anything anyway. Plus it is another ability on Skrap that is missing during the teamfight, so absolutely 0 value gained aside from maybe 15-20 lasthits depending on the progress of the match. And here is the thing, if you time your arrival with Vorax's, that literally trasnaltes into a fight too late, cause opponents may just intercept Vorax early and then teleport back when you get caught offguard due to ruined setup timing.
Even if you call Vorax when all opponents are dead, chances are most of them respawned before he got anywhere near any important structures and if they are dead for 90 seconds, chances are Vorax had no impact on that but simply your team being too dominant.
There is just no way where Vorax actually contributes value in it's current state, outside of your team dominating OR having JUST about turned a fight.

As for the Morsels heal, it is about as useless in most scenarios as it can be. it requires You to be centered during a teamfight and by far too many ways exist to break regeneration, rendering its 10 hp/s pretty much useless. That plus the non existant XP bonus just make it... not good.

 

Tl;dr:
I would like to see the hero being entirely redone because at it's current state it only serves as a smurf yolo hero and it's not even a good one at that.
At the very least, Skrap needs compensation for the amount of utility he lost over the years, not in numbers but in actual utility.
The XP bonus is negligable and even requires usage of cd or risk of positioning.
Morsels and Vorax just beyond Underwhelming.

Granting Vorax bonus abilities/passives per level in the ultimate would be a good start (lvl 1 as is, lvl 2 attackspeed slow aura, lvl 3 armor reducing aura, lvl 4 (staff) damage aura).
Increasing Morsels XP rate and changing their healing effect from flat 10 hp/s to 0.2% of current missing HP per 0.2 seconds or something like that would suddenly make it good but not too good (values just for display).
Additionally Staff could give Skrap Stacks on Mouse Trap, max of 1/1/2/3 or something, with 2 seconds delay between each other or 3 idk.
He just needs SOMETHING cause rn he is actually NOTHING compared to each other availlable option in every single aspect.
OR give Vorax an aoe Attack that proccs whenever he loses x% of max HP, True Damage (as opposed to Siege Damage) and reduce the amount of damage he takes from siege attacks to match the Tier level of the building he is hitting. So he can for example kill a T1 on lvl2 without commiting suicide over it.

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6 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

i dont want to return back to the era where skrap / balp / Deadlift is picked most of the game

never implied that should happen, but rn he might aswell be removed and it would have literally 0 impact on the game as the hero brings actually literally nothing any other hero couldnt do better. and that is not just in some areas, its in all areas and at once. skrap is doing worse in every single aspect at once than any other hero is.

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yeah I feel like Vorax should be used on a lane where you/your team isn't... so he split pushes... but now since you gain only 65% of the gold if you are away from Vorax, you are basically stealing the gold away from your team.

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I think you are being a bit exaggerated, I use a lot of skrap in ranked and it seems to me an excellent supp and pusher, I feel that if it were raised to the level of experience by Paper Morsels, it would be broken, the fact that you can slow down, stun, heal And it is also an excellent tank if you know how to put it together, I don't think it is subject to buffeting. The number of times I have saved the game is uncountable because we have no rax and the vorax helps me defend that line.

It's just an opinion, for me it's fine.

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When they removed the dmg buff to Vorax during heal, the hero completely fell off the map in my eyes. It might have been too strong, but I haven't seen any Skrap having much of an impact since. I'm not even sure it will perform decently in a push lineup anymore. With that said, I haven't personally played it since and can't tell for sure if it's as bad as I think it is.

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21 hours ago, Diabetis said:

yeah I feel like Vorax should be used on a lane where you/your team isn't... so he split pushes... but now since you gain only 65% of the gold if you are away from Vorax, you are basically stealing the gold away from your team.

From this occasion makes me thinking an idea to give Vorax an aura (around 1000 radius) to turn opponent's lane creeps into rodents, making them ignored by NPC while stunning them and increasing their damage taken (around 10/20/30%) as long as there are within the aura radius. From this idea, Vorax could move faster to destination and also doesn't reduce gold source to the team.

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54 minutes ago, datfizh said:

From this occasion makes me thinking an idea to give Vorax an aura (around 1000 radius) to turn opponent's lane creeps into rodents, making them ignored by NPC while stunning them and increasing their damage taken (around 10/20/30%) as long as there are within the aura radius. From this idea, Vorax could move faster to destination and also doesn't reduce gold source to the team.

that would make him even worse cause then he would have to punch towers all by himself, edaling less damage, and even stacking opponents waves as he does so...

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17 hours ago, DragnSlyer said:

I think you are being a bit exaggerated, I use a lot of skrap in ranked and it seems to me an excellent supp and pusher, I feel that if it were raised to the level of experience by Paper Morsels, it would be broken, the fact that you can slow down, stun, heal And it is also an excellent tank if you know how to put it together, I don't think it is subject to buffeting. The number of times I have saved the game is uncountable because we have no rax and the vorax helps me defend that line.

It's just an opinion, for me it's fine.

mostly out of curiousity can i ask on which ranks?
cause on silver i can pull of skrap just fine as people dont know how to deal with it.
as soon as people however start to just to a minor extend coordinate, both vorax and skrap become absolute nonfactors

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56 minutes ago, MerryHONmas said:

that would make him even worse cause then he would have to punch towers all by himself, dealing less damage, and even stacking opponents waves as he does so...

Oh, thanks for pointing out the problems there, I really appreciate it. There are some ways possibly fix those problems:

  • Regarding Vorax punches tower all by himself so it triggers backdoor protection, perhaps it can be fixed by making Vorax not triggering the backdoor protection. 
  • Regarding to potential on stacking opponents creep wave (I only think via blocking the lane by enemy's player), it possibly can be fixed with instant-killing opponent's lane creeps under Vorax's aura once Vorax dies.

Did I miss some of your points? I apologize if those were the case.

Edit: I found out my idea and its fix are still possible to be abused so I propose another idea to make Vorax attacks turn enemy lane creep into rodent (same effect as my previous idea) until Vorax dies. Once the rodent effect gets nullified (either from having Vorax died or strong dispel) the affected creep is instantly killed, credit kill goes to Skrap.

On-topic: I actually already agree about all of your points mentioned and I also like your idea about Vorax emitting aura to bolster pushing capability but I hope the aura only apply to lane creeps and heroes because I'm afraid the pushing team era will rise again as @w3_StarBoy mentioned. Though, I could be wrong.

Edited by datfizh

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I agree that Morsels bonus exp is completely pointless addition to the skill. It doesnt even fit his theme to be honest. But thats basically all I can agree with.

The thing with Vorax is that it disarms the tower. Its pretty insane to be honest. You can take team fights at towers and the enemy team has to choose to either focus their attention to Vorax and get smacked by enemy heroes or focus on enemy heroes and let Vorax take the tower. Have you ever tried to defend base without tower? Its pretty hard.

Saying that it takes two seconds for enemy team to kill Vorax seems also huge exaggeration. Atleast early game it take quite a bit to kill depending of course what heroes you have.

He has huge aoe heal, quite long range skill shot slow, and basically two aoe stuns. 

If you say Skrap is weak then I believe you lacked the team coordination to get the benefit of him or just had a bad player playing him. I´ve seen countless Skrap players just randomly spawning Vorax whenever off cooldown basically giving enemy team nice amount of gold. But I´ve seen some who are pain in laning phase and use Vorax to actually get lanes pushed.

Edited by ScrubFactory

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1 hour ago, ScrubFactory said:

If you say Skrap is weak then I believe you lacked the team coordination to get the benefit of him or just had a bad player playing him. I´ve seen countless Skrap players just randomly spawning Vorax whenever off cooldown basically giving enemy team nice amount of gold. But I´ve seen some who are pain in laning phase and use Vorax to actually get lanes pushed.

That's literally my point, the hero needs so much setup and timing (that can still be ruined by opponents reacting early enough to break vorax before he reaches the centerpoint of a lane, not talking about level 6 pushes!) that it makes him terrible at anything remotely like that as hellbringers ult is better in every single way. do not forget that he may disarm the tower but after 10 attacks or so, he dies! he can not actually solo push a tower unless it is low.
The other things you mentioned, as i pointed out too, they are great on paper, but:
Q can EASILY be dodged / sidestepped as it is slow as fuck and i you don't catch it, it has a terrible cooldown time. Slither slow has more value as do most other slows.
W can also be avoided and played around and it can not even anymore used as actual traps around the map since it got nerfed too a long time ago. Atleast not remotely as efficient anymore. Pick any other stunner and you will do better, period.
And again regarding the heal, it is 10 HP per second aoe in intervals, so much counterplay to it, cause Srakp is squishy as FUCK and has to be more or less centered in the teamfight for it's proper value to get off and even then you can shut it down. Soul Reaper comes to mind.

Now don't think I want all abilities buffed or I am nitpicking, I am simply showcasing how terrible the conditions of all his tools actually are once you put them together, especially since EVERY SINGLE ONE got nerfed!
The entire initial basis of Skraps Morsels was removed, fully! The heal was just a tiny bonus ontop initially.
Skrap being able to place numerous traps for 20-25 seconds (forgot their original lifetime) is gone aswell, his Skrapmerang or whatever it is called was nerfed too. As was Vorax.
Skrap is a shell with nice on paper theories that in practice do not come together anymore.
Wanna hear a terrible Joke?

Mimix does a hundred times better at pushing lanes without being near the lane, than Skrap does.
Cause, fun fact (and please fix this, it's retarded that that is even a thing), Mimix illusions, especially with Staff, have so much Lifetime they can remotely push a lane including a Tower, while Mimix is on the other end of the map. They nuke the wave, push, and almost "solo" towers, even T3 (with a little bit of effort and farm, which comes quickly enough doing this).
So Skrap does not even hold that niche anymore. Period.

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Skrap is low priority right now. The hero isn't particularly memorable, but I can still manage to give minor changes to him soon.

 

I would not expect any kind of reworking to him for a very long time (if at all).

Edited by ElementUser

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Make Vorax scale a little bit somehow so he doesn't become completely useless the more the game goes on. Let him scale in armor or something. Buffing early game skrap would just create the snowball effect everyone thought was a bit too much 😛 tho it kinda was fun. 

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Posted (edited)

I guess we should play around the interplay of his mechanics and his numbers first before deciding on a full rework. His kit isn't particularly broken which warrants an urgent rework. This will be a long post, as this dwells on technical aspects of the hero/abilities and interactions (as well as examples/comparisons).

Premise:

Spoiler
  1. Skrap is a utility hero who leans towards pushing - mainly through his ultimate, Unleash Vorax. This is "supposedly" complemented by his unique resource - Morsels - which primary serve as snacks to Vorax to sustain his push (with a side-effect of being a sustained, resource-limited, wide-AoE heal for his team). Q and W simply serve as utility complements to his concept - with loose synergies to this regard (i.e. Mousetrap allows for indirect protection / area denial / disable, while Zoomerang serves as a cheap harass + slow and as a way to get Morsels from far away). Q and W, when used in conjunction, serve as good-enough wave clear - as well as flexible order of usage depending on the situation.
  2. This kind of kit, however, isn't technically bad design or just randomly put together. The loose flexibility allows his abilities to work independently (ala Valkyrie), but the combination of his abilities make him jack-of-all-trades. His kit is also fairly unique to him.
  3. As a support hero, his non-ultimates are skewed to be stronger during the early game. His, in particular, are all technically one-point wonders.
  4. The numbers on his skills, on paper, are on par with most heroes. What holds him back though are the mechanics / limitations in his abilities - which allow other heroes to do things better than him (since the effects are more impactful and more immediate). If anything, I'd say only W would be fine out of his entire kit in this regard.
  5. His key strength, through Vorax, is that he allows areas with towers to be more of a level playing field for aggressive teams to extend into enemy lines (as Vorax disarms the tower), so the only advantage of enemies through towers would be the vision and the reveal (+ cliff for base entrances).

 

Skrap's particular mechanics-related (as well as a bit of scaling-related) issues:

Spoiler
  1. Let me start with Q. The ability is a two-part skill - an initial effect and the delayed explosion effect designed to be a trap. The initial contains slightly less than half the damage it can deal in full for 1 activation and inflicts an AoE mini-stun (mostly to cancel channeling or to interrupt casts/attacks), while it is technically the delayed explosion which provides much of what the ability should deliver - the AoE stun with damage on top.
    • With this kind of split though, Skrap players are encouraged to hold on to the ability - only using it when one can have a high chance of triggering the delayed explosion.
    • If they do decide to use the ability to lay down area denial traps (i.e. choke points, on top of heroes to protect from initiation), you already lose out on a good amount of damage. These traps also cost a notable amount of mana when levelled (80/100/120/140), while the traps themselves have issues such as (1) additional delay due to the chasing portion of the trap (which is quite slow and non-scaling at 350 movement speed and only when an enemy goes into its detection radius - which creeps can also trigger to clear the trap for the enemy), (2) low durations which limit the amount of traps active around the area (40 seconds ~ 3 traps at most at a time), and (3) forced explosion of the trap (when it deems itself to be chasing too long - 1.5 seconds of chasing). The combination of (1) and (3) allows fast enemies to outrun the trap (or delay it for a considerable amount of time to do actions that can be to the disadvantage of Skrap's team before getting stunned).
    • As a trap for area-denial and for counter-initiation, EW's roots generally have more impact due to (1) being more instant in rooting enemies, (2) being hidden (so those against EW do not particularly know where the traps are), (3) traps stay active longer to allow for more traps to be laid down over a particular crucial area for defense, and (4) longer root duration. What Skrap's Q has over EW's E though are (1) Skrap's is a hard disable (as a stun vs a root), (2) the long cast range, and (3) the initial cast having a small impact.
    • His trap being always visible is both a boon and a bane.
  2. His E is a pure one-point wonder - with no form of scaling outside Vorax' heal (yes, your team heal through E is the same regardless of level - at 10 per second/morsel). As such, E is generally skilled last - especially when Vorax' is gated by a long cooldown and level 6 minimum. Levelling E early also serve little purpose (unlike before when it was viable to even max E first so that come level 6, Vorax can be impactful and can be well-sustained in pushing). However, by the time you max Q and W, getting stats would seem more impactful that levelling E (unless you get to sustainably push with Vorax as he slowly goes through the lane and goes against all odds to get to a tower)
  3. Unleash Vorax, while theoretically a powerful ability that renders towers useless when in range, has issues in terms of push damage, spawning, and utility.
    • Vorax always has to spawn from one of the creep-spawning locations. This means (1) it would always take time for Vorax to arrive at the intended pushing target and (2) there are no immediate advantages made when Skrap activates his ultimate (in most cases). However, it is also because of this that Vorax is a strong ultimate for turtling / defending T3 Towers - simply because he spawns fresh from there and becomes a nuisance that has to be dealt with in order for that push to continue (since Vorax will just tank and smack incoming creeps down one by one).
    • Vorax, upon activation, becomes visible to enemies right from the start and will continue to be visible while alive. This means that Vorax' arrival at the target tower can easily be estimated/telegraphed - as he moves in a fixed path based on the lane selection
    • Vorax may have bulk as an individual unit, but this bulk is sacrificed when attacking towers (as a fixed percentage of his HP is removed for each attack done by Vorax to towers). This bulk also only scales in terms of Max. HP (so Skrap's heal through Morsels actually scale back as more levels are invested into Vorax); his armor and magic armor values remain to be 10 across levels.
    • Vorax' scaling in levels are only (1) attack damage, (2) HP, (3) Gold/Exp Bounty (worsens for your team as enemies gain more from dealing with Vorax), and (4) minor cooldown reduction. For the damage aspect, his damage against towers isn't particularly high to begin with - despite being able to disable towers, the bulk of the tower remains, so his damage of 100/120/140 per attack is cut down by about half per attack to the tower (and this damage to buildings is further penalized by the Combat Type of Vorax - "Melee"). A Tower Fortification also causes Vorax to chip away his own HP per attack.
    • There can only be 1 active Vorax at a time (to avoid exploits or to avoid abuse); each Vorax lasts for 3 minutes.
    • Vorax' utility, as a unit, are mostly not specific to heroes - (1) instant-kill of creeps per attack, (2) disarming and focus-firing towers. and (3) targeted Rock Throw to heroes every few seconds for a single target damage and tapering slow (which can stealthily, but situationally put enemy Null Stones on cooldown). These utilities though are generally outclassed by Hellbringer's Malphas (who has magic bulk, clash-defining activation bonuses, passive immolation, self-sustain through HP regen, tower siege bonus damage, and the flexibility of being controlled).
    • He does have a niche in independently defending a pushed lane and start split-pushing due to his bulk and creep instant kill, but this is discouraged by the gold loss incurred for each creep killed applied relatively recently (this became one of his viable uses post-removal of the damage boost through Morsels - allowing Skrap to safely farm for a larger utility item through the gold he gets from Vorax' creep kills).

 

Possible Solutions while retaining the essence of his current kit - these are effectively mechanics-centric tweaks which serve as QoL changes:

Spoiler
  1. Fix the limitations on his Q, as well as juggle the effects to where they matter most
    • Increase the impact of the delayed explosion (i.e. the damage dealt and/or the stun duration), while only keeping the initial cast effects to a minimum (minimal damage and mini-stun to put PKs/some mobility skills on cooldown as well as provide a quick channeling disruption)
    • Scale up or increase the chasing speed of the mouse when triggered
    • Lower the scaling of mana cost (i.e. 80/100/120/140 -> 90/100/110/120 or 80/95/110/125)
    • Increase the duration of the traps (i.e. 40 seconds to 45/55/65/75) to allow for leeway to set-up for more traps when pushing a particular location becomes sustained.
  2. Tweak the spawning mechanics of Vorax to be more flexible while also being fixed in a way (to keep the distinction of Vorax with Malphas) - i.e. using towers (either destroyed or active - ala Draconis' SotM effect) as possible spawn points. These spawn points determine which lane Vorax would be pushing (at least he can be guided as to Bot-Top-Mid as intended). This reduces the time it takes for Vorax to move to the target pushing point, while also rewarding Skrap's team for pushing towers (since spawning points get unlocked)
  3. Reward Skrap in applying sustained heal through Morsels by (1) gradually increasing the heal per Morsel the longer Skrap has it active (have a healing cap to avoid abuse) and (2) allow Morsel heal for allies (or even EXP Gain) to scale a bit through more ability levels.
  4. Tweak the numbers and mechanics of Vorax as a unit - with an emphasis on enemy hero protection (so he can more reliably get to a tower to apply what he is intended to do - disable towers). Vorax' AI also gets played around on so that he doesn't get to a tower - by drawing his aggro and run around that specific area to "lock" him in place - so these anti-hero measures should discourage enemies from drawing Vorax' aggro for long periods of time (i.e. Vorax dealing a lot more damage to heroes taking damage from him, changing the rock thrown to an actual Mousetrap of Skrap). Possible buttons for tweaking are also (1) his scaling HP (and its diminishing effect on Morsel heal) - changing this to instead be a mix of armor, magic armor, and HP regen (instead having a fixed amount of HP), (2) his combat type (to be more tower-damage centric) / his damage to towers (i.e. making him ignore tower armor, since he sacrifices a chunk of his HP per attack), and (3) ability activation cost (i.e. mana, cooldown - so Skrap can sustain being in lane when calling Vorax, as well as allow Vorax to be more available as the game goes on).
  5. Add a SotM Upgrade to Skrap to incorporate the damage-boosting aspect of Morsels again (or boost his ultimate).

 

Edited by The_CarRan
added a line for SotM Upgrade as part of possible solutions / QoL changes
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