Jump to content

Welcome to the Heroes of Newerth forums

The forums have received a complete makeover. Click the button below to read more about it.
Read more

Can we give magebane some love?


Recommended Posts

Here I am again to rant about one of my favorite heroes underperforming again.

Magebane has been underperforming (currently 0.6% usage and  43% win percentage, which are massively low) for a while now and I want to give my opinion on why this is happening while giving some suggestions.

First, I'd like to acknoledge that magebane is a hero with the best farming skill in the game (yes, i think his blink is that good of a farming skill) and a very annoying hero to play against, but right now it's desrespectfull how weak he is.

  • He has one of the lowest starting HP
  • Low armor
  • No stun/slow or anything really that helps on a lane to get kills

These factors basically make magebane the worst laner on a 2v2 situation, but let's talk about a 2v1 (short vs suicide) situation:

  • Has no skill to speed up killing neutral creeps, relying on cleaver and early damage items to farm at a decent speed
  • Has no strong carry skill (skills that increase damage/attack speed or stats) that helps him on late game, outside of magic armor I guess

So, this is why i think magebane is a terrible pick right now. I'll try to give a suggestion that improves some of these as a hole while not making the hero OP, since we need it to be lower than average, considering how frustrating it can be playing against him.

My idea is to make magebane a hero with a high skill cap. How to do that? Here are some suggestions (remember, I don't want all of them applied, I'm just giving ideas, rate them as you wish):

  • Increase starting HP - Let's all agree that a melee hero with 400 hp lvl 1 is a joke. give it at least a couple starting strength, while reducing str gain over time
  • Change his Q ability from passive to active and slightly increase it's mana burn - Either if it's a attack efect (like vindicator and arachna) or a temporary buff to attack, this will definetelly increase the hero difficulty
  • Change Staff effect - As a magebane fan, I really don't like the current staff effects. Changing the "Mana feedback" (if you don't know what it is, basically every enemy cast deals damage to the caster based on mana spent) from AOE on blink to AOE on his E skill (additionally to the current E magic armor bonus) could be a good choice. I think his ult buff can be removed completely, but some changes on cooldown can be thrown there too
  • W applies tapering slow - Just feels necessary and fitting to the graphic effect. If you don't agree with the slow part, maybe apply an attack (including mana burn from Q) to all enemies in a small area

Those are my ideas from now. Please let me know what you think, mainly on the suggestions I gave above

Edited by LennyXX
  • Like 1

The princess is always in another castle

Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with Magebane is that it's a DotA original. The hero is a carry who is supposed to be countering spellcasters, but casters are strongest in the early/mid game while Magebane currently has early game as his weakest part. This alone is contradictory to the hero's name - early game casters dominate Magebane.

 

Magebane's reason to be picked isn't because of his effectiveness against high-mana heroes (nor is it effectiveness against mages in general), it's to accelerate his farm speed way faster than any other hero with an early Runed Cleaver & get 1-2 more core items than other heroes for typical carry item timings.

 

His entire design is flawed since its conception from DotA, but because it's from DotA, we can't really change it without backlash. Not to mention that his low cooldown blink & high Magic Resistance makes him really hard to kill as an Agility carry (Agility means he has Armor), so he just can't have a moderate/high Strength growth (because it just makes the hero way too tanky against Magic & Physical Damage alike). His low cooldown blink enables the hero to do what he's picked for (the high speed farming & carry timing attack), but that + the other aspects of the hero are the exact causes of frustration.

 

Ideally, Magebane would be a Strength hero that dampens a lot of nuke & CC effectiveness for himself/his team and punish enemy casters from the early to mid game, but that in itself would be a major rework. So to answer your question, outside of a full rework, we can only perform minor changes to the hero in terms of numbers & minor mechanics. The problem will never truly be solved unless what I say actually happens. He's no bane to mages until late game rolls around.

Edited by ElementUser
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

What about giving him a magic armor buff upon blink (instead of passive one) and making his E a passive with the "mana feedback" mechanics?

I think this is what he used to be in one iteration, am i wrong?

Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

His entire design is flawed since its conception from DotA, but because it's from DotA, we can't really change it without backlash.

Considering you acknoledged that the design is flawed, shouldn't it be enough for us to have this changes, separating it from his DotA cores?

The princess is always in another castle

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, unlike other heroes, MB has a shorter base attack speed, meaning all attack speed items on him are stronger. 

He's not as weak as you think+complete counter to parallax and DR. He must have SOME weakness..

I'd be more interested in seeing his win% in higher tiers than just his general win%, just guessing here, but could be radically different

Link to post
Share on other sites

Magebane is little weak in HoN compare Dota because the exist of pure physical spell and spellshard but i dont want to see him got buff or nerf too much. Some carry heroes in HoN have buffed too much to the point they strong in both laning phase and late game and require a lot of cc skill to kill them

 

Edited by w3_StarBoy

HoN SEA Player

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Mr`Cactus said:

if you mean the BAT (Base Attack Time),  didn't it get uniformed among all the heroes many patches ago?

Magebane is the only one who retains a baseline improvement to my knowledge, other than him, pebbles loses from his ulti, warbeast gains from ulti, and shadowblade loses from his gargantuan.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, cobaye said:

First of all give his W spell the free assists back. That already helps him alot. I never got why it got removed.

I believe it because some players didn't want to waste the 2nd ability for just applying magic armor. 

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/9/2020 at 8:54 AM, idan223 said:

Also, unlike other heroes, MB has a shorter base attack speed, meaning all attack speed items on him are stronger. 

He's not as weak as you think+complete counter to parallax and DR. He must have SOME weakness..

I'd be more interested in seeing his win% in higher tiers than just his general win%, just guessing here, but could be radically different

But he does have weakness, several weakness actually. Right now, as said on my post, he is the worst laner in the game and, being a hero that cannot jungle or mid, just has no place in the game. I think this is toxic for the hero because it's basically like this: Either you get free farm and win the game out of farm or you don't get farm at all and have 0 chance to recover.

Talking about high tier, i can start collecting some data, but I'm almost sure the hero's win rate is pretty damn lower.

In my opinion, magebane's weakness should be facing tanks (which is a weakness right now, but could be increased). Heroes like pharaor, devourer, armadon and other strength heroes are pretty hard for a magebane to kill, even when he is full items.

Also, he can't even counter parallax and DR right now. sheep, spellshards, nullstone and even a void stone are all core/good situational items on these heroes and they pretty much nullify magebane's effectiveness against them

Edited by LennyXX

The princess is always in another castle

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/9/2020 at 10:57 AM, w3_StarBoy said:

Magebane is little weak in HoN compare Dota because the exist of pure physical spell and spellshard but i dont want to see him got buff or nerf too much. Some carry heroes in HoN have buffed too much to the point they strong in both laning phase and late game and require a lot of cc skill to kill them

 

I'm trying to bring the attention to the hero exactly so we try to find ways where magebane gets stronger on laning phase and weaker on lategame carry v carry situation. He should be an underpowered hero that only excels when facing spellcasters and inteligence heroes

The princess is always in another castle

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/11/2020 at 10:32 PM, LennyXX said:

I'm trying to bring the attention to the hero exactly so we try to find ways where magebane gets stronger on laning phase and weaker on lategame carry v carry situation. He should be an underpowered hero that only excels when facing spellcasters and inteligence heroes.

I think mana combustion is one of problem on Magebane to make him also good against carries besides spellcasters. So, I throw some ideas:

Spoiler

Option 1: Change mana combustion mechanic and its follow-up.

  • First ability is completely changed to deal bonus attack damage based on 3/4/5/6% of attacked enemy's current mana.
  • Second ability works as it does currently with additional mechanic to gain charges equal to 0.5 times the percentage of Mana spent by visible enemies in 750 radius to Magebane, up to a max of 60/80/100/120 charges. After not gaining charges for 10 seconds, loses 10 charges per second. Activating the ability consumes all charges and converts them into 1 attack damage per 1 charge consumed for 5 seconds or 1 attack. General parameters (cast range, mana cost, cooldown) are same as Wretched Hag's Flash of Darkness.
  • Ultimate ability is completely changed to apply a mini-stun to a target then applying a 10-seconds debuff to target and 1/2/3 (2/3/4 with staff boost) visible enemy heroes in 600 (1200 with staff boost) range. The debuff removes all debuffed enemies' health equals to 40/70/100% of mana used by them. Same general parameters (cooldown, cast range, mana cost, type of application, etc.) as current ultimate.
  • Change armor, BAT, overall strength, and overall agility to be the same as Adrenaline.

Thought process:

  • First ability suggestion is intended to create a synergy of other ideas.
  • Second ability suggestion is intended to give Magebane a burst tool and substitute suggested first ability when enemies use their mana within Magebane's area.
  • Ultimate ability suggestion is intended to make a team fight tool to Magebane.
  • Stats suggestion is proposed to make Magebane not too much an overpowered carry because of these proposed changes.

Option 2: Strengthen mana combustion

  • First ability works as it does currently with number adjustment to 7/8/9/10% of attacked enemy's remaining mana. It also passively gives charges to visible enemy unit equal to 0.5 times the percentage of Mana combusted in 900 radius to Magebane, up to a max of 40/80/80/120 charges. Activate to enable the attack to consume the accumulated charges from enemy for 4 seconds, dealing 1/1/2/2 magic damage per 1 charge consumed. After not gaining charges for 10 seconds, loses 10 charges per second. Has 20/16/12/8 seconds cooldown.
  • Second ability works as it does currently with one imbued attack after activation for 4 seconds, dealing 18/24/30/36% (24/30/36/42% with staff of master) of attacked target's missing mana as magic damage. General parameters (cast range, mana cost, cooldown) are same as Wretched Hag's Flash of Darkness. Staff boost: killing an enemy hero with imbued attack resets the cooldown of this ability.
  • Third ability works as it does currently with an activation to grant an aura effect to enemies in 900 radius to Magebane for 15 seconds, dealing 35/50/65/80% of Mana used by them as Magic Damage. Has 35 seconds cooldown.
  • Ultimate ability is completely changed to give a mini-stun to a target then apply a 15-seconds debuff to target and 1/2/3 visible enemy heroes in 600 range. The debuff combusts debuffed unit's mana by 40/70/100% of mana they use (deals 60% of mana combusted as magic damage). General parameters (mana cost, cooldown, cast range) is same as current ultimate.
  • Change starting armor, overall strength, overall agility, and BAT as same as Adrenaline.

Thought process:

  • first ability idea is intended to give a rough realization the topic poster's suggestion.
  • second ability idea is just thrown to replace current ultimate.
  • third ability idea is intended to give a rough realization the topic poster's suggestion.
  • fourth ability idea is intended to give synergy to all of these ideas.
  • several stats adjustment needs to be done to balance these ideas.

 

Edited by datfizh
Add option number 2.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The problem with Magebane is that it's a DotA original. The hero is a carry who is supposed to be countering spellcasters, but casters are strongest in the early/mid game while Magebane currently has early game as his weakest part. This alone is contradictory to the hero's name - early game casters dominate Magebane.

I do not get why this is contradictoy... Magic Armor is one of the most hard and valuable stats to get. By being weak against Spellcasters in early/mid it doesn't mean that he isn't a hero that banes magic caster heroes. Specially when his ult is taken into account. You just obliterate a magic caster that will have a big mana pool by definition.

Also, Magebane is one of the strongest heroes to survive OP man up lanes like Mag/Engineer specially because of his Magic Armor passive. By being squishy but at the same time being able to survive high magic burst combos is what made the hero along the years. On top of that, any hardcarry suffers/benefits from benefits from a certain point in the game. What some are calling design flaws, I would call it like niche benefits that alters and draws gameplay coordination.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, _SouL said:

I do not get why this is contradictoy... Magic Armor is one of the most hard and valuable stats to get. By being weak against Spellcasters in early/mid it doesn't mean that he isn't a hero that banes magic caster heroes. Specially when his ult is taken into account. You just obliterate a magic caster that will have a big mana pool by definition.

Also, Magebane is one of the strongest heroes to survive OP man up lanes like Mag/Engineer specially because of his Magic Armor passive. By being squishy but at the same time being able to survive high magic burst combos is what made the hero along the years. On top of that, any hardcarry suffers/benefits from benefits from a certain point in the game. What some are calling design flaws, I would call it like niche benefits that alters and draws gameplay coordination.

I don't think you get it, so let me spell it out for you directly:

Early game = casters are strongest. These are typically considered "mages". Magebane sucks early game against casters because of his low HP & he poses no threat to casters early game (the thing he's meant to counter, thematically).

Magic Armor scales much harder with HP. Magebane is an Agility hero that has low HP. Having high Magic Armor means nothing when your HP is low. Building agility leads to having High Armor, which leads to my next point.

Magebane has an escape ability on a low cooldown. It's frustrating to kill him if he had higher amounts of HP. Having a low CD escape, high Armor & high Magic Armor makes a hero impossible to kill.

Magebane's low CD blink means his optimal playstyle is rush Runed Cleaver to accelerate his farm faster than most other carries after he obtains it.

 

How are all these not design flaws? Who cares about countering casters when they're at their weakest compared to other heroes (late-game)? Shouldn't you want to counter carries instead at that point? When you want to counter something, you want to counter something when they're at their strongest, not at their weakest.

Edited by ElementUser
Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want to start with this line of reasoning, should we bring to the table then some S2 carries that according to your logic, will also fall into design flaws ?

I did get it correctly but what I wanted to point out is that even if part of your arguments make sense it also brings into the discussion other "design flaws" from other point of views.

If we change this one, we might look into other areas as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/20/2020 at 9:49 PM, _SouL said:

If you want to start with this line of reasoning, should we bring to the table then some S2 carries that according to your logic, will also fall into design flaws ?

I did get it correctly but what I wanted to point out is that even if part of your arguments make sense it also brings into the discussion other "design flaws" from other point of views.

If we change this one, we might look into other areas as well.

Well, I'm curious what you'd bring on table about some S2 carries because that will inspire me to create the suggestions out of them. Though, you should create another topic for that.

Another idea to Magebane rework:

Spoiler

First Ability [Complete Rework]

  • Change name from Mana Combustion to Mage Combustion.
  • Grants bonus attack damage to Magebane by 6% of attacked unit's max mana.
  • Applies a debuff to attacked enemies for 6 seconds (doesn't stack, only refreshes), combusting their mana by 35/70/105/140% of mana used by them.
  • Mana combustion by this ability deals 100% of combusted mana as magic damage and also damages enemies in 225 radius.
  • No longer contains mana combustion modifier (so Nullfire Blade's mana combustion works).

Second Ability [Buff]

  • Grants 1/2/3/4 layer(s) for 6 seconds to Magebane after activating this ability.
  • The layer blocks one instance of magic damage taken over 60 damage by Magebane to a maximum 120 damage.
  • The damage blocked consumes the layer that also also reduces stun & debuff duration by 80% (overrides same effect with lower value) to the instance it blocks.
  • General parameters (cooldown, cast range, mana cost) follows Wretched Hag's Flash of Darkness.

Third Ability [Complete Rework]

  • Activates to deal 10% of enemy's current mana as magic damage to enemy unit in 225 radius to him for 4/6/8/10 seconds.
  • Post-mitigation damage done by this ability regenerates Magebane's health.
  • Has 20 seconds cooldown.

Fourth Ability [Buff]

  • When it goes on cooldown, reduces this ability cooldown by 0.5 times percentage of enemy's mana spent in 900 radius to Magebane.

Stats [Adjustment]

  • BAT changed from 1.45 to 1.7
  • Strength changed from 16 +1.8 to 19 +1.9
  • Agility changed from 25 +3.1 to 24 +2.5
  • Starting armor changed from 1.5 to 1.8

Thought Process:

  • First ability is proposed to be less frustrating against and specifically directed to oppose spellcaster.
  • Second ability is proposed as defensive tool against magic spellcaster.
  • Third ability is proposed to indirectly trigger proposed first ability.
  • Fourth ability is proposed to make this ability used frequently.
  • Stats change is proposed to handle the proposed change of abilities.

 

Edited by datfizh
Add another idea.

If anyone wonders about my intelligence regarding this game, then consider yourself visiting this thread:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I love the idea of strength Magebane. Not a carry who can destroy literally everything once snowballed, but a tanky hero who punishes enemy casters. But you'll have to get rid of the most Magebane skills if he becomes str. But it is good actually. I mean screw his QWE, they are the most boring skills in the whole game!

Look at this concept:

Spoiler

 

Q: Blink to the targeted enemy, deal damage and apply silence. Can be used twice.

Example: deals 2/2,75/3,5/4,25x Magebane's int as magic damage to the target and apply 1,5/2/2,5/3 seconds silence. Can be used again in a 3 seconds window, but not on the same target. If not used, cooldown is reduced by 3 seconds. 10 seconds cooldown.

Strength hero with unrestricted mobility would have a bit too much survivability. Also lack of attack speed must be compensated by having some kind of a nuke. It also lets you use it again to move around the battlefield quickly but does not allow you to nuke down a single target right away or silence target for ages.

W: Increase attack damage vs silenced enemies and apply slow to them.

Example: Magebane attacks deal 1,25/1,5/1,75/2x damage to silenced heroes and applies 10/10/20/30% movement slow to them for 2 seconds.

Mana combustion is good for a high attack speed carry but mostly useless for str hero. For his Q, str Magebane needs something to follow up. This is the thing. The opportunity to deal some more damage to your target and do not let it escape.

E: A global aura increasing enemy skill cooldowns and decreasing ally skill cooldowns based on how big is the int difference between Magebane and the target. Switch on to double the effect and reduce range to 1500, draining 5% of your max mana per second from you and 10% of your max mana per second from silenced targets.

Example: enemy heroes get a 0,1% cooldown increase for each point of difference between them and Magebane if they have more int than Magebane. And allies get 0,1% cooldown reduction the same way. Does not stack with other sources of cooldown reduction. For instance: pyromancer with 150 int affected by 50 int Magebane's aura get 10% cooldown increase. Same goes for allies but they get cooldown reduction instead.

Magic armor is the most stupid and boring skill in the whole HoN. There are a ton of sources of magic armor in HoN. You do not have to waste a whole hero skill to get magic armor. It can be something fun and unique instead, like messing with cooldowns! It is absolutely unique and can fit magebane role with int scaling: low intelligence heroes are barely affected and high int heroes suffer much. Truly a mage bane. This also introduces a unique tactics of avoiding int items on both enemy heroes and Magebane himself and forces steamboots usage.

R: Current ulti fits fine. Maybe decrease damage and make it AoE and add silence.

As you may have noticed, Q and E are somewhat conflicting with each other and also E is even conflicting with itself. It is fine. You can choose to make your Q hit very hard and E to drain mana rapidly from your foes, but sacrifice your damage, survivability and cooldown effects.

You either stack str to deal a great amount of attack damage to silenced targets, be very tanky and let your team benefit fom cooldown reduction / weaken your targets by increasing cooldowns or you stack int to deal high burst damage and drain mana from your foes.

 

Yes I know this one can be really broken. It's just a concept from an amateur player, but you get the idea, right?

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Strength carry magebane?

 - 4k HP, 20 physical armour, 15 magic armour and a 6s Blink ???

No plz

Str hero would not normally have 20 physical armor.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the analysis of Magebanes winrate in high MMR games?

My guess is its higher and that he is simply not being played to his potential and not being picked at the right times by lower ranked players. 

Buff his early armor if you want, that way you dont have to buff his agility gain and he can still farm a little bit better if you want to  even the odds a bit. 
It's also very clear that MBs winrate is dependent on his ability to reach late game.
https://www.honrec.com/hero/Magebane
 

We're talking about 70-80% winrates for just reaching his second item after runecleaver. 

Edited by Ondis
Link to post
Share on other sites

Magebane is just a useless hero and there's just much better heroes to pick to be honest. Pretty much the only way he can survive the early game and farm is if he's against a suicide and he has a support. Compared to other hard carries such as Dark lady or Madman who can actually hold their own much better and farm just as well with their movement abilities, I see no reason to pick Magebane ever in a game. It seems so stupid to me for a hero to have to rely on a single item (Runed Cleaver) in order to be effective in the game and even then Magebane is still a lackluster hero. I don't see the point of having magic armor even if he has a blink since his health pool is so tiny that it doesn't even matter if he has it and his only chance of surviving most of the time is by blinking away. In the late game when physical damage is king his weakness of a low health pool is further exacerbated.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...