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w3_StarBoy

Puppet master and his beyond god like Ultimate and Damage

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Posted (edited)

------ HIS CRAZY ULTIMATE ------

Before we talking, plz watch those video from youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wME0oZb2OTQ . HoN OMG annihilation 187 (started at 7:34) The puppet deal damage twice to Prophet with single non critical hit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNFUzlNH3SU. HoN OMG annihilation 184 (started at 1:00) Lv 13 Magebane have 13 magic armor and be killed by single hit plus Ultimate. The toolip show 1233 magic damage. You can see magebane complain about how he get killed instantly (i dont understand what they talking too)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TBbKAOPP10 HoN OMG annihilation 183 (started at 5:50). PM with harkon blade and empath buff. Pharaoh active his barbed Mail. PM take reflect damage from the two auto attack and then used ultimate, deal 2485 magic damage to pharaoh and take no reflect damage because he attack the puppet, not pharaoh. The splash damage from critical didn't give the reflect damage to PM.

This Trick is used alot on high ranked game expect on some player who want to destroy one single enemy on Purpose. There is no method to counter this trick because the reaction time is too short and the damage is too high. Puppet also can use his Puppet show to stop any enemy heroes to active there bkb.

This trick is not too hard to use, just stay around 300 range, click A and R to enemy at the same times. Or calculator your critical hit and use ultimate

Many Puppet Master also dont often lvling his Frist skill, just one point and spent skill point to Stat to give more damage, and Hp

------ HIS LANNING EARLY GAME ------

- Complete unplayable if you are melee heroes, his ridiculous attack damage plus Critical hit out harras any melee heroes, when lanning with supporter, he can disable a single hero up to at least 5 seconds, and they cant use skill to run expect Bubbles .

------ HIS MANA POOL -------

- Puppet Master have 3.1 Intelligent gain per lv, and the hero dont use any of his spell to farm creep, make PM always at full mana to fight. Even if his mana is not full, his mana regen alone will be enough for one or two skill when he need. When he have zero mana, a single mana potion maybe enough to keep his farming.

- Most of the fight, PM only out of mana because some of mana burn (Magebane, Puzzle Box, nullfire)

-------- MY THOUGHT ---------

- PM deal both magic and physical damage with CC type magic. Make it very hard to play against even with shurken head

- The most hated Hero I dont want to fight or gank

- The seconds most annoying hero (frist is Vindicator)

- He destroyed my 1.5k hp tank heroes (Cthuluphant) with two hit and a ultimate at lv14. Make me dont to play the game anymore

-------- MY RMK SUGGESTION ---------

1- Make his frist skill work like old ultimate shellshock, slow the enemy and slowly drag them back to center, if enemy hero run away, they take the damage from breaking or nerf the duration early

2- Nerf his ultimate and reduce range break. Allow player have more space to counter it. Current, it likely he destroy any heroes with a single spell.

3. Make his passive non-critical by adding the flat bonus damage every 4 hit and force him to buy Intelligence item. PM can play either as a agi-heroes or both intel-heroes and the damage is still insane

Edited by w3_StarBoy

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For some reason, My post lost text and un-correct grammar. I edited it after go back home. Feel free to give your opinion


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Posted (edited)

All of those examples are just Puppet Master being many levels higher (like 5+ levels higher) than whoever he kills & he also has much more gold.

 

Also he's using Shroud/Genjuro to amplify his crits, all of which is intended. Puppet Master actually has no nukes in the laning phase & only has soft CC & his autoattack to function during that time, so he's not as threatening as most heroes. He's a ranged carry who trades mobility away for CC. Just nuke him or stun him and there's very little he can do to fight back unless he has a good laning partner.

 

Puppet Master is perfectly fine to deal with if you're on even footing with him or can even get a jump on him. His burst is limited to his usage of R & Shroud/Genjuro.

Edited by ElementUser

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There is many example for PM kill enemy heroes just by a click from his ultimate, and the fact that player can calculator their critical damage with shroud make the Ultimate more deadly to deal in High ranked game. Also the different level cant explain how the Puppet deal 2485+1102 damage to pharaoh. Even without harkon (5 magic armour), the damage is still insane. Are you going to say that lv 17 pharaoh with barbed blademail is not tank enough to face lv 24 PM?

And, i think there is a bug that make the puppet deal damage twice to target from the frist clip

 


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I think you mean when puppet master splashes both the enemy hero and the puppet near him at the same time. If it's the case, then it's not a bug but an intended feature of the hero ^^

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3 hours ago, Mr`Cactus said:

I think you mean when puppet master splashes both the enemy hero and the puppet near him at the same time. If it's the case, then it's not a bug but an intended feature of the hero ^^

spacer.png

Puppet deal twice the damage. Critical Hit? Nope

p/s: Lv 22 PM with one point on Q


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Posted (edited)

If you can replicate what you think is a bug, then you should provide the replication procedure.

 

I can't tell what items Prophet had or his HP value & can't dissect everything from a video if you think there's a mistake. I don't know where that instance of damage is coming from as the video quality is not high enough.

 

Regardless of whether the bug exists or not, look at his win rate in NAEU. He's not even picked up much in recent HoN tournaments. Puppet Master also has to get close to his target to pull off this burst if he doesn't have a huge farm advantage, so bring stealth detection (Puppet Master players won't buy Portal Key because it reduces his burst too much compared to Shroud/Genjuro). That way Puppet Master can't get close to you to use his ultimate & thus has a much harder time getting the splash damage to apply on his target & his puppet.

 

Also if he's not farmed, he's pretty squishy & vulnerable as he has no natural method of escaping + his CCs are only soft CCs. You should aim to stop him in the early/mid game and not let him snowball, pretty much like every other carry.

Edited by ElementUser

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Posted (edited)

The image is from HoN OMG annihilation 187, frist link. started at 7.34

Prophet have 4 line HP, Each is 200, so he have total 800 hp at that time. PM deal 222+372= 594 damage make prophet lose 3 line HP. He have 200 left. Prophet run at all cost so he dont stay near the puppet

I will check if there is a bug later but i dont know where to creat a practise game after the cilient change in 4.0

Resuit: No bug found

Edited by w3_StarBoy

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i've been a 3k hp tank before and lost more then 70% of my hp with 0 splash from pm, hes one of the 6 heroes i wish didn't exist.

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On 8/26/2020 at 12:50 PM, w3_StarBoy said:

------ HIS LANNING EARLY GAME ------

- Complete unplayable if you are melee heroes, his ridiculous attack damage plus Critical hit out harras any melee heroes, when lanning with supporter, he can disable a single hero up to at least 5 seconds, and they cant use skill to run expect Bubbles .

This is a lie. PM dies super easy in early. Magmus, Lode, Shell, Chtul etc all pretty much rek him with a good lane partner. It's not your job to outfarm on longlane. Just jump their carry. He has no escapes and is super slow.

On 8/26/2020 at 12:50 PM, w3_StarBoy said:

------ HIS MANA POOL -------

- Puppet Master have 3.1 Intelligent gain per lv, and the hero dont use any of his spell to farm creep, make PM always at full mana to fight. Even if his mana is not full, his mana regen alone will be enough for one or two skill when he need. When he have zero mana, a single mana potion maybe enough to keep his farming.

- Most of the fight, PM only out of mana because some of mana burn (Magebane, Puzzle Box, nullfire)

Most of the times PMs max E anyway. So ofc he has Mana for his spells upon lvl 10 and upwards. Like every other carry btw. When u max q or w over e, you will be OOM all time.

On 8/26/2020 at 12:50 PM, w3_StarBoy said:

-------- MY THOUGHT ---------

- PM deal both magic and physical damage with CC type magic. Make it very hard to play against even with shurken head

- The most hated Hero I dont want to fight or gank

- The seconds most annoying hero (frist is Vindicator)

- He destroyed my 1.5k hp tank heroes (Cthuluphant) with two hit and a ultimate at lv14. Make me dont to play the game anymore

1st one i agree.

2nd point doesn't make sense. Getting ganked is his weakspot. When it's the 'least favourite hero you like to gank', i can see why this thread exists.

3rd point that's personal preference, but i'm rly wondering how some1 can put PM and Vindy above Matyr, Parallax and DR. But whatever

4th why were you solo as Chtul anyway. Otherwise Barbed ftw.

On 8/26/2020 at 12:50 PM, w3_StarBoy said:

-------- MY RMK SUGGESTION ---------

1- Make his frist skill work like old ultimate shellshock, slow the enemy and slowly drag them back to center, if enemy hero run away, they take the damage from breaking or nerf the duration early

Sounds 10x better like his current Q spell. His Q Spell ain't his problem. It's a pretty mediocre spell.

On 8/26/2020 at 12:50 PM, w3_StarBoy said:

2- Nerf his ultimate and reduce range break. Allow player have more space to counter it. Current, it likely he destroy any heroes with a single spell

Reduce Range Break i can agree with. The current one is just way to long. That he destroys any hero 1 shot is a lie. When he does that, he went for full dmg. As said: Barbed ftw.

On 8/26/2020 at 12:50 PM, w3_StarBoy said:

3. Make his passive non-critical by adding the flat bonus damage every 4 hit and force him to buy Intelligence item. PM can play either as a agi-heroes or both intel-heroes and the damage is still insane

That's the spell that makes the hero. Without it, he would be the worst hero in the entire game. If you wanna 'change' him, remove Puppet show and give him something else. The spell is super retarded anyway and still bugged alot of times.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, cobaye said:

Reduce Range Break i can agree with. The current one is just way to long. That he destroys any hero 1 shot is a lie. When he does that, he went for full dmg. As said: Barbed ftw.

Look at the third link in frist post. Pharaoh actives barbed blademail and PM used Ultimate, PM take no reflect damage because he attack the puppet and the bonus damage + Splash damage deal a lethal 2k4 damage to Pharaoh

I dont solo him when i played Cthuluphant, he just appear from nowhere when i stick with my two teammates, attack me two hit and I die with 1k5 Hp. Sound good?

PM isn't really easy to gank if you ask me. He have some cc and can use it to run, compare to other carry who just run away, being disable for a long time may lead to death situation. just take a similar way, you gank Master of Arms but got Stunned and being shoot to death. His Weakness is not "easy to gank" but rather he dont have any magic damage spell expect Ultimate.

 After testing, His ultimate destroy 1k5hp at lv 3. That can count at 2000 magic damage vs 5 magic armour

Edited by w3_StarBoy

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17 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

After testing, His ultimate destroy 1k5hp at lv 3. That can count at 2000 magic damage vs 5 magic armour

Ok, how did You test it? What items did you give Puppet, what items did the target have? If you want to make your point then atleast provide more information.

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, ScrubFactory said:

Ok, how did You test it? What items did you give Puppet, what items did the target have? If you want to make your point then atleast provide more information.

Item: None

Skill: Voodoo Puppet Lv 3

Target: 2005 Hp Gravekeeper (5.0 Magic Armour)

Attacker: Tower Tier 4

Resuilt: 512 Hp left

Total Hp lost: 1493

Spoiler

V84bXsf.jpg

PPY7R7X.jpg

iukyB9a.jpg

Another Resuilt:

Spoiler

 

Magic Amour: 10

Hp left: 793

Total Hp lost: 1212

---

Magic Amour: 15

Hp left: 1028

Total Hp lost: 977

 

If you ask me make the test that Pm attack the puppet himself, the resuilt is around 550-570 GV HP left because the critical hit from passive. It doesn't count the splash damage yet and it can increase further by items (I testing it with zero item on PM lv 25)

With the Splash damage from passive, it cause many resuilt but all of that is Gravekeeper lost more HP than normal hit

 

Edited by w3_StarBoy

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Posted (edited)

Ok? Is there something wrong with the numbers in your test? Because I see everything working as intended.

I don´t get it. 

 

Edited by ScrubFactory

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What you dont understand??? I thought i explain everything clearly

No bug found but, is there any spell that deal 2k magic damage to a single target? Adrenaline?


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Sure, Voodoo Jester can do it with curse, Swiftblade with his ultimate, new Nitro has the potential to do it, Chronos can possibly do it, Artillery, Magebane, Moonqueen, Tarot, Blacksmith, Engineer, Xemplar, Soulstealer...

I mean there are a lot of heroes that can deal insane amounts of damage to a single target or even in aoe if the conditions are right. Puppet is no different.

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All of the heroes you list require condition. Some of them have hard condition to deal huge damage, the other require many damage item.

Puppet master alone just require a click and then attack The puppet. If any heroes can do 2k magic damage instantly to a single target like you mention. Then no reason to nerf Adrenaline. Adrenaline have zero cc skill after all


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4 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

All of the heroes you list require condition. Some of them have hard condition to deal huge damage, the other require many damage item.

Puppet master alone just require a click and then attack The puppet. If any heroes can do 2k magic damage instantly to a single target like you mention. Then no reason to nerf Adrenaline. Adrenaline have zero cc skill after all

There are conditions to have those for PM though, and the effects/damage transfer are not instant. The strongest combination for PM to setup - which is to spawn the puppet right beside the target and take advantage of the splash mechanic of Whiplash (+ force the target to attack the puppet through Puppet Show) - is something that requires PM to compromise his position as well (in addition to the need for an item that allows him to close the distance). His ultimate is also primarily single-target with a long cooldown which balances out its strengths - then there's the condition that the puppet's connection may be lost if the target gets too far (~1500 away from the puppet - which is not hard to do for heroes with mobility skills). Additionally, PM's puppet is magic only (not superior magic), so magic immunity can be a counter (both to the puppet and PM's other soft CC's).

GK can easily achieve 2k+ damage (not instantaneously, but in seconds) through blinking beside a lone key target, activate R, time his stuns to prevent the enemy from getting away, then finish with W (24 zombies spawned over seconds swarming over a helpless target easily overwhelms the target_ - but then his single-target damage potential can be messed up by targets spreading away (as his zombies wouldn't concentrate towards a desired location). Swiftblade has his ult to potentially do this over time (as pointed out by others) - with an invulnerability state to boot - and there are others which can achieve similar feats.

As such, I find it unfair to oversimplify the case against PM's ultimate.

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Posted (edited)

i don't deny that there is many heroes deal more damage than PM with a single target spell. However, plz keep it in mind that those heroes require condition.

 Ex. SwiftBlade, Moon queen with no allies around, Voodoo with cursed ground can kill 4k Hp Devouer, MB when he ulti a zero mana Parallax (!!!) . Nitro need attack item, move speed to keep chasing target.

 I dont consider Gravekeeper as a hero deal 2k magic damage with a single spell. Gravekeeper require a full combo of his skill set and a condition that the target is alone, no allies unit around.

When i testing the Voodoo Puppet skill, i dont use PM to attack the Puppet but the orther source damage (Tower). As you all see, the ultimate alone destroy 1k5 Hp without any special condition. NO SPLASH DAMAGE, NO CRITICAL HIT. I dont use trick when testing the damage and if I use, the resuit is more terrible. Plz remember in normal teamfight. The voodoo Puppet can transfer not only damage from Puppet but any stun, AOE damage from his teammates.

The Counter way of this ultimate is that you must be strong, tanky and out level Puppet Master so his ultimate cant instant kill you. Sure you can run away but you may get stunned or take the Puppet show skill before it. The third is as you say, active the shurken Head and kill PM as fast as you can. Barbed/Cyclone does not work to save you from his ultimate

Some heroes didn't use Shurken Head as a core expect hard carry. Ex: Thunderbringer, Ellonia .... Or some heroes who need more core items before shurken Head. Ex: Rally, Hag, Lord salforis, Lodetone .... 

Edited by w3_StarBoy

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Why does it matter if the source of damage is a tower? Damage is damage. If the Voodoo Puppet as 1000 hp and returns 180% of incoming damage then it can deal atleast 1800 magic damage before any reductions. You letting tower do the damage doesn´t matter. 

You say that other heroes need to meet certain conditions and then completely ignore the fact that the same goes for Puppet Master.

 

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What special condition Voodoo Puppet need?  Target a hero and attack the puppet?

Because the damage is too high to the point where it can delete a heroes istant, and further it can increased more with PM attack damage. 

It's fine if the damage is around Pyro's Ultimate with SOTM but Pyro is not a carry, but a caster who need some core items before he can buy damage items

My suggestion is the ultimate should deal mixed damage and have HP based on max HP of the target (like scout), so if the target active void or shurken head, the damage will reduce and not a nightmare threat where your shurken Head exprie. It's also force PM to build damage items rather than focus on attack speed with little attack damage include.

Edited by w3_StarBoy

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Just now, w3_StarBoy said:

What special condition Voodoo Puppet need?  Target a hero and attack the puppet?

Are you slow?

On 8/31/2020 at 4:14 AM, The_CarRan said:

The strongest combination for PM to setup - which is to spawn the puppet right beside the target and take advantage of the splash mechanic of Whiplash (+ force the target to attack the puppet through Puppet Show) - is something that requires PM to compromise his position as well (in addition to the need for an item that allows him to close the distance). His ultimate is also primarily single-target with a long cooldown which balances out its strengths - then there's the condition that the puppet's connection may be lost if the target gets too far (~1500 away from the puppet - which is not hard to do for heroes with mobility skills). Additionally, PM's puppet is magic only (not superior magic), so magic immunity can be a counter (both to the puppet and PM's other soft CC's).

 

Just now, w3_StarBoy said:

Because the damage is too high to the point where it can delete a heroes istant

 

On 8/31/2020 at 4:14 AM, The_CarRan said:

There are conditions to have those for PM though, and the effects/damage transfer are not instant

 

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Just now, w3_StarBoy said:

 

My suggestion is the ultimate should deal mixed damage and have HP based on max HP of the target (like scout), so if the target active void or shurken head, the damage will reduce and not a nightmare threat where your shurken Head exprie. It's also force PM to build damage items rather than focus on attack speed with little attack damage include.

So instead of negating all damage with Shrunken Head your idea is to give him damage type which can´t be negated at all? 

Why would Puppet go straight damage items if his passive is best with attackspeed?

Edited by ScrubFactory

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I already proof how people got instant killed by his Voodoo Puppet in frist post. One of those proof is Magebane, the heroes with the fasted cd mobility skills, die in one hit before he can react

Magic armour is hard to change, especially in late game but Physical Armour is not, normal heroes have more than physical armour than magic armour. Making the Ultimate deal mixed damage mean you can increased/reduce it in both way. With the effect of shurken Head, the Puppet will only deal physical damage with 50% the damage, make it more reason for the attacker carry like PM. (and the damage is not high as magic damage). And with the effect of the Void Talisman, we negative both the attack from PM and the voodoo puppet at the same times, but the Puppet stil deal high magic damage to target like the current we have (1/2 of 2000 magic damage is ~1000 magic damage plus - 5.5 magic armour???). This is may cause the problem that sp dont have chance to counter PM but as long they have more than 1k HP, they may survive. Current we require at least 1k5 hp to survive the Voodoo Puppet damage, 

To keep the Ultimate healthy and not too strong, this is why i suggest it have HP based max HP target, but it may require more testing. (around 300/450/600 + 10/15/20% Max Hp with 140/160/180% more damage taken )

Edited: Just forget about this mix damage sugestion. My bad Habbit

 

Edited by w3_StarBoy

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You keep ignoring the fact that all those one shot kills happened because Puppet Master had the farm and items to position himself to be able to pull it off.

Do me a favor. Go play a game or two of HoN. Pick Puppet Master and see how it goes. Come back and post the match IDs.  By your theory, you should one shot everyone as soon as your ultimate is off cooldown.

Edited by ScrubFactory

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