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MerryHONmas

Voodoo Jester's insane powelevel throughout early and midgame

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Voodoo Jester could seriously do with some number tweaking.
The issue with that hero is that his Cursed Ground ability has such high damage potential, that even on level 1 it can already easily take half of an enemies total HP which for a non ultimate ability is just insane.
For comparison, most other magicdamage dealers, especially ones with DoTs, sit around 70-100 magicdamage on level 1 of their respective abilities.
That is without autoattacks.
Now in case of VJ, the numbers are slightly lower however his attacks and potentially the ones of an ally easily escalate that to a total of 150-200 damage taken through the ability alone.
What's worse, it not only deals damage in intervals, it also has consistent damage so there is no counterplay as it can not even be purged (yeah it's a state, how glorious :D).
Level 2 or 3 of the ability usually mean guarantueed kill unless there is a huge gap in skill level between the players.
And this is not an ultimate, mind you!
The hero has been like this forever, since it's introduction almost, I believe. But he even got buffed in the meantime!
His castrange (and I believe also his cast action speed) on cursed ground were improved drastically as it was "difficult to hit". Which to be honest I already disagreed with when it happened 7 or 8 years ago but with the overall improved "skill" level of players, this should be reverted.
It is just way too easy to land and way too potent during early and midgame. A Pyro needs a total of 3 abilities at level 6 including autoattacks to kill most targets. Voodoo technically only needs CG and attacks. Stun obviously helps. His ult does secure the kill but if you play it properly, that level 3 Cursed Ground combined with attacks is sufficent to kill quite a fair amount of heroes.
 

Now all of that were manageable if Voodoo did not also have a stun that is a Nightmare to play against.
The hero forces you to stay apart from teammates and if you are too close to a teammate and the stun bounces, it may lock you two in a state of permastun for a total of 4 seconds.
The issue here being less the fact that this is possible but more the fact that you have NO WAY of getting out of it!
Please introduce a 0.1 second delay or immunity after being affected by Cocktal thingy, so you can actually use abilities or atleast spread a tiny step at a time.

Now this sounds like a rant thread which in some way it is, but mostly for the reason that VJ probably is one of the most abused supports in higher TMM.
The hero is just way too easy to play for his insane powerlevel and his Cursed Ground is literally the only non ultimate magic damage ability that stays a hundred percent potent (not just relevant, POTENT) even throughout lategame!
While Shrunken Head can  protect you from receiving it, the fact that it is a state will allow for it to remain on you and if I am not mistaken any damage taken during it's state will continue to increase it's damage after the immunity ends.
There is just barely any downside to that hero.

While the hero DOES need coordination and SOME degree of knowledge and skill, the rewards compared to alot of other heroes that deal damage in their nature are just by far too overwhelming, especially when put into perspective regarding to how potent the hero is.

I would like to suggest to either revert or slightly nerf the cast times on cursed ground again, or introduce a precentage based max damage scaling per interval, because it can spiral limitlessly!
OR
(altho depending on how hard either ability is tackled "AND")
introduce SOME form of mechanic to his Acid Cocktail taht allows struck heroes to move or act again after being affected by it for 3 times within x seconds.

Seriously the insane powerlevel and POTENTIAL of that hero outvalues almost any of the few downsides he has.

Plus he has some of the highest starting Attackdamage too....

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Posted (edited)

yes and no, vodoo power is his delay damage, delay stun. It's sure very strong but a fact in require times to actually deal damage mean you can counter it by Regen/restore HP or magic immunity, Power suplly/blight runes will help a lot early.

In late game, when the combat happen very fast, his delay stun cant help much if his team cant handle the situation. You can say that Vodoo depend very much on both team picked

If there is any problem, it should be his cursed ground work too good with spell sunder. Prevent the Hp regenation while keeping the DOT.

My suggestion is making spell sunder does not work with Cursed ground by change it to hp remove basic on magic armour and negative Pk in 3 seconds 
or make cursed ground deal 0.5x damage on hp lost by Spell sunder

Edited by w3_StarBoy

HoN SEA Player

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2 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

yes and no, vodoo power is his delay damage, delay stun. It's sure very strong but a fact in require times to actually deal damage mean you can counter it by Regen/restore HP or magic immunity, Power suplly/blight runes will help a lot early.

In late game, when the combat happen very fast, his delay stun cant help much if his team cant handle the situation. You can say that Vodoo depend very much on both team picked

If there is any problem, it should be his cursed ground work too good with spell sunder. Prevent the Hp regenation while keeping the DOT.

My suggestion is making spell sunder does not work with Cursed ground by change it to hp remove basic on magic armour and negative Pk in 3 seconds 
or make cursed ground deal 0.5x damage on hp lost by Spell sunder

blight doesn't do that much for you around level 3-5 when cursed ground's powerspike is happening.
you usually also won't be able to teleport to base every single time else you may aswell just stay in base.
ofcourse you can go roam at any time, but if a support alone is able to protect his lane from a suicide of equivalent level indefinitely, until a major gold advantage is achieved, then something isn't right.
supports are supposed to be strong early game and turn into useful tools mid and lategame with decreasing powerlevel or atleast stagnating.
vj is just like "fuck you my dot damage is higher than any ultimate damage level 6, 11 or even 16".
either it needs a damage cap or a SUBBSTANTIALLY higher cooldown (atleast +10 - 12 seconds and i am NOT joking!).
OR it needs drastically improved tradeoffs/difficulties.

Because as it is right NOW or over the past years, ever since it got buffed, the ability literally means won lane even in 2v2 situations.

The only way to currently lose a lane to a VJ is if you are mechanically by far more skilled than he is and even then his Cursed Ground is a major threat. you can't even deny any one under it's effect...

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Cursed Ground require the seconds damage output to deal heavy damage to cursed target. This skill is consider strong at lv 3-4 not Lv 1-2. If you got suck early game because it in 1vs1 or 2vs2. It mean you play wrong somewhere.

The Ability is untouched in 11 years of HoN. and in Dota 2, it's even got stronger version early and late game. While the orther ability is got nerfed several times. There is even a trick to reduce it damage by buying Hp regen items then sell it. In Current version, we also have Golden apple to instant heal 80hp, ortherwise just bring power supply or ask your support buy Refreshing Ornament to keep your hp in good state. And you are wrong, Blight does reduce damage alot, especially when Cursed ground is low level early

If you still think it broken in early game. You should try Spellshard, Spellsunder and Soultrap on vodoo in late game. 

P/s: I dont remember much about the new map, but the side shop is still there, right?


HoN SEA Player

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I sense gross exaggeration & a very strong personal bias in the OP.

 

Nobody complained about Voodoo Jester & he is meant to be an early game powerhouse. I'm not really even considering that VJ may need changes at the moment or in the foreseeable future.

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6 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

Cursed Ground require the seconds damage output to deal heavy damage to cursed target. This skill is consider strong at lv 3-4 not Lv 1-2. If you got suck early game because it in 1vs1 or 2vs2. It mean you play wrong somewhere.

The Ability is untouched in 11 years of HoN. and in Dota 2, it's even got stronger version early and late game. While the orther ability is got nerfed several times. 

Not true, Cursed Ground damage used to be calculated based on amount of damage taken since cursed was applied, not amount of health lost. Subtle difference but the counters you mention are stronger now because they also lower damage taken.

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1 minute ago, Poseidon said:

Not true, Cursed Ground damage used to be calculated based on amount of damage taken since cursed was applied, not amount of health lost. Subtle difference but the counters you mention are stronger now because they also lower damage taken.

If you wanted to be technical about it, Voodoo Jester's Cursed Ground saves your Health value at the time it was applied, then deals damage based on (Saved_HP - Current_HP) at the time of the check.

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2 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

If you wanted to be technical about it, Voodoo Jester's Cursed Ground saves your Health value at the time it was applied, then deals damage based on (Saved_HP - Current_HP) at the time of the check.

Gib me inadvertant heals from CD when I have more health after CD was applied pls

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1 hour ago, ElementUser said:

I sense gross exaggeration & a very strong personal bias in the OP.

 

Nobody complained about Voodoo Jester & he is meant to be an early game powerhouse. I'm not really even considering that VJ may need changes at the moment or in the foreseeable future.

Not quite, Ive been sitting on this for so many years, and everytime I play with people that are 1800+ and an opponent picks VJ the entire team already gets pre-annoyed by the pick.

It's true that noone complained about it on the forum so far and that does include me. But the hero has an unhealthy power level throughout the entire game and the infinite damage potential pre level 6 is what usually annoys people about him. And this is btw not a rant thread. I did not create this after a loss to a VJ.
I created this after having thought about how to present it for quite a while but nothing was said in spite!

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Poseidon said:

Gib me inadvertant heals from CD when I have more health after CD was applied pls

Well, technically you could from interactions like Myrmidon's R and Insanitarius since the spell saves absolute HP 🙂

Edited by ElementUser

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You cant complain every heroes just because you lose to them. As EU said, no one complain about VJ being OP at early game. He doing fine on his job while creating space for people to counter him.

You better should complain on another heroes like klanx and Puppet master who flying all the times or one shot full HP Magebane. or something else


HoN SEA Player

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Just buy a Power Supply, get Runes of the Blight, get Health Regen, buy a Vestment, get TP stones, there are so many ways to deal with Voodoo that don't even involve using Hero drafts that hard counter him (like Nymph and basically any heals).

Also as an aside, stop getting Sunder on Voodoo. It makes Curse deniable, which basically makes the whole spell awful.

The hero is fine; could do with maybe having his old 59 base damage though no I'm kidding that was insane.


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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1 hour ago, w3_StarBoy said:

You cant complain every heroes just because you lose to them.

what?
did you even read what i wrote?

yeah lets complain about a hero that can do stuff once he is fed, instead of a hero that does staff without anything lol ?!?!?!?!?!?!

1 hour ago, Hubaris said:

Just buy a Power Supply, get Runes of the Blight, get Health Regen, buy a Vestment, get TP stones, there are so many ways to deal with Voodoo that don't even involve using Hero drafts that hard counter him (like Nymph and basically any heals).

problem is just taht, so many items already needed to counter his level 2 cursed ground powerlevel.
it's the base level that requires barely anything to almost nothing plus the fact that it has infinite damage potential and is so super easy to hit, that i disfavour.
it's just too little tradeoff for the upsides and pwoerlevel

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Voodoo Jester is honestly pretty well balanced. It has advantages in the early game, but definitely also weaknesses as the game progresses. I feel like if we start messing around with the curse too much, the hero will just drop into dumpster tier, and will never be picked. Definitely needs strong buffs to its other spells in that case. The hero is quite effective for how difficult (easy) it is to play however, but that's another discussion.

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well if i am honest, cursed ground isnt my "issue", its how his q interacts with you if you couldnt manage to get out of bounce range in time and remain within frequency range, aka become permanently stunned until it ends.

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Posted (edited)

i dont consider buying Power supply, blight rune Early game to counter Cursed ground as a problem.

I also dont consider getting the seconds or third stun from the bounce early lanning as the problem. You need at last lv 2 Q for third stun plus the ally nearby

@Hubaris: yeah, it's deniable, i forgot but still it's very impressive damage dealing

@ElementUser: Spellsunder deal non lethal damage, can we make it non-deniable?

Edited by w3_StarBoy

HoN SEA Player

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Vj is not only strong Early to mid, hes awesome late aswell. 

Cg been easy to hit with only One stun. No need to bounce. Bouncing is bonus. 

 

Vj is super strong all game and frankly annoying.

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3 hours ago, RUS_AGENT007 said:

Cg been easy to hit with only One stun.

This!
The hero never needed a buff yet got one years ago

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Posted (edited)

i agree vj is one of the strongest support heroes, but he`s far from being OP. i`ve never seen some1 complain about a vj pick in a 1800+mmr game, nor does he get banned frequently. 

Imo if he was as strong as you guys mention, he should be a viable mid lane or manup pick, which he isnt. he has a huge potential dmg output, but he lacks many other factors (creepfarm, a blink for initiation/savety, real burst dmg, support aura/spell)

in my gaming experience (vj mastery lvl15, while playing 1800+) he feels perfectly balanced in the past and present. 🙂

Edited by Mosher
and the cursed ground is only easy to hit, if you have a perfect positioning. if you are chasing a hero, the spells feels kinda weak early game

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Mosher said:

i agree vj is one of the strongest support heroes, but he`s far from being OP. i`ve never seen some1 complain about a vj pick in a 1800+mmr game, nor does he get banned frequently. 

Imo if he was as strong as you guys mention, he should be a viable mid lane or manup pick, which he isnt. he has a huge potential dmg output, but he lacks many other factors (creepfarm, a blink for initiation/savety, real burst dmg, support aura/spell)

in my gaming experience (vj mastery lvl15, while playing 1800+) he feels perfectly balanced in the past and present. 🙂

Quote: and the cursed ground is only easy to hit, if you have a perfect positioning. if you are chasing a hero, the spells feels kinda weak early game 

Edited by Mosher
i fuckd this up, some1 delete :D

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Posted (edited)

Anyway, Voodoo Jester is fine. The only other person I heard complain about Voodoo Jester's Q is SomaZ & I already told him how that opinion is shared only by a handful of players. There are constraints to the bounces, i.e. it's random so it's more of a minor disruptor in actual teamfights & even if there are only 2 enemies nearby for it to chain stun into, the distance matters (if it's too large, they can gradually escape; too small & the stun chain duration is suboptimal).

 

He's intended to be an offensive powerhouse in the early/mid game phases, and his defensive capabilities are quite limited. None of these features change the fact that he's a squishy support hero. Also, Cursed Ground's 450 cast range is still quite unsafe - you pretty much have to commit to casting it & it means that if the opponent has counterinitiation ready, you could very well die. He's fun and a popular support hero in TMM because he has actual kill power early on as a support.

 

Also, Witch Doctor in Dota2 has more powerful numbers despite sharing almost the exact same spells still (with Mojo being the only one that changed).

 

Nothing's really going to change my opinion at this time.

Edited by ElementUser

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