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gillesberg

Can we have Pharaoh's mummies burn mana again?

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Posted (edited)

Pretty please. Title is self-explanatory; it would be nice to have pharaoh's mummies burn mana from heroes hit by the wall again. I remember some really fun shenanigans tableting enemies into my mummies, burning their mana, and I miss it.

A bit of background:
Historically, Pharaoh's walls were always able to burn mana from targets hit by mummies. Pharaoh got hugely buffed in patch 4.3, after which he received some nerfs in the following patches 4.3.3 and 4.3.5. I have copy pasted the changelog for Pharaoh from https://hon.gamepedia.com/Pharaoh#Changelog from patch 4.3 to 4.5.2 (where he received the most recent change), below.

In patch 4.3.3, the mana burn effect from Pharaoh's walls was removed. Nerfs to Pharaoh were definitely justified in context of the buffs from patch 4.3, but I always felt that the hero lost some of its identity by removing the mana burn effect. It felt so justifying to have enemies chase you, just to run into the wall 2 times, having to give up the chase. In my opinion, removing the mana burn effect wasn't the correct change in attempt to scale down Pharaoh's power level. If I were to go back in time to patch 4.3.3, I would much rather have another (major) nerf on another of Pharaoh's skills, instead of removing the mana burn effect from the walls entirely.

In context of HoN today - would the readdition of mummy walls burning mana be balanced/justified?

Pharaoh is currently sitting at 53% win rate, and I beleive the hero has been sitting around 51%+ win rate the last couply of weeks (although I don't have screen shots - mabe you have access to this data at Frostbourne). The hero is relatively good in its current state and in the current meta, and doesn't necessarily need any buffs. The readdition of mana burn to Pharaoh's walls would arguably be a strong buff, but however, I don't think it would break the hero - as a Pharaoh, you are mostly concerned with trapping the enemy hard carry inside the wall of mummies and lock it down (hence enemies won't touch the wall this way). The change would however buff Pharaoh's laning stage, which is already strong, provided you are skilled enough to hit an enemy with a mummy wall. However, in my opinion, this is not easy to do, if your opponent is a bit careful and is aware of the mechanic. You would likely not wish to go close to pharaoh anyways, since hellfire + mummy trap is already a kill threat, without the mana burn. The readdition of mana burn to mummy walls is mostly a feel-good, nostalgic change.

What change to wall of mummies do I suggest exactly?

The readdition of mana burn to wall of mummies could be a strong buff in the hands of an experienced Pharaoh player, and therefore the addition should not be too powerful in its first iteration. I suggest that upon touching the wall of mummies, it should burn:

65/90/115/140 mana,

as it was in patch 3.6 (pasted at the very bottom of the post). This would allow us to have the feel-good mana burn effect, without it being too punishing in the laning phase for enemy heroes with low intelligence gain and/or starting intelligence. 

Last comments:

Hero balancing is generally a delicate matter. If the readdition of the mana burning effect comes at expense of another Pharaoh nerf, I am not sure if I want it. Pharaoh is in a good spot at the moment - not a top tier pick, but decent, and a nerf just might make the hero "not-decent". If this change is to happen, I would prefer to see it added without nerfing Pharaoh's other abilities.

TL:DR;

I desire a readdition of a mana burning effect on Pharaoh's wall of mummies. I beleive the effect to be core part of Pharaoh's identity, and I have missed the effect ever since it was removed. I suggest that enemies touching the wall of mummies are burned for 65/90/115/140 mana, scaling with ability level.

 

Version 4.5.2

  • Pharaoh Wall of Mummies.jpg Wall of Mummies
    • Can activate again while the Mummies are active to kill them early.

Version 4.3.5

  • Armor lowered from 2.9 to 2.2.
  • Pharaoh Tormented Soul.jpg Tormented Soul
    • Cooldown increased from 25/20/15/10 to 30/25/20/15 seconds.
  • Pharaoh Wrath of the Pharaoh.jpg Wrath of the Pharaoh
    • Magic Damage reduced from 100/200/300 to 75/175/275.

Version 4.3.3

  • Pharaoh Wall of Mummies.jpg Wall of Mummies
    • Duration reduced from 4/5/6/7 to 3/4/5/6 seconds.
    • No longer removes Mana from affected targets.
    • Damage type changed from True to Magic.

Version 4.3.0

  • Base Strength increased from 24 to 26.
  • Strength gain increased from 2.4 to 3.0.
  • Pharaoh Hellfire.jpg Hellfire
    • Mana Cost increased from 75 to 100.
    • Magic Damage increased from 10/30/50/70 to 20/40/60/80.
  • Pharaoh Wall of Mummies.jpg Wall of Mummies
    • Duration increased from 3/4/5/6 seconds to 4/5/6/7 seconds.
    • True Damage and mana burn increased from 65/90/115/140 to 80/120/160/200.
    • Knock back duration lowered from 1.1 seconds to 1.0 seconds.
  • Pharaoh Tormented Soul.jpg Tormented Soul
    • Mana Cost lowered from 50/55/60/65 to 50.
    • Cooldown lowered from 30/25/20/15 seconds to 25/20/15/10 seconds.
  • Pharaoh Wrath of the Pharaoh.jpg Wrath of the Pharaoh
    • Initial projectile touch radius increased from 96 to 125.

 

Version 3.6.0

  • Pharaoh Wall of Mummies.jpg Wall of Mummies
    • Mana drain on walls increased from 55/70/85/100 to 65/90/115/140

 

 

 

 

Edited by gillesberg

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Posted (edited)

I don't really think it's needed in the sense that Pharaoh has been picked up with great success in yesterday's HoN OMG Cycle #1 tournament (and even the HoN OMG Tour Season 2 tournament).

 

Balance-wise, Pharaoh is just fine.

Edited by ElementUser

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Posted (edited)

Hi Elementuser, and thanks for you feedback! I greatly appreciate that you take time to take a look at my post.

I do agree with you, Pharaoh is just fine in it's current state, this was just something that was on my mind for a long time. So I just give it a shot and made a forum post.

Would you consider if the mana burn effect was 25/50/75/100? So half of the magic damage from the mummy walls. In this way, the mana burn could still allow for an escape in rare cases in the suicide lane or if you're getting ganked as a (solo) midlaner in the earlygame - and given the enemy is already at half mana or similar. In the mid-late game, the effect shouldn't be too noticeable.

 

BR 

Edited by gillesberg

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Pharaoh is really strong, the Strength and Hellfire buffs are killer; and honestly I would rather have the raw Strength gain that he now has instead of the mana burn. 

I loved the mana burn, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it is as core a part of his identity as YOLO IN and disrupt. The other tradeoffs allow him to fulfill that function a lot better than mana burn does. Heroes have a budget of power, and I would rather the power budget be allotted to him being able to do his role successfully (as was seen the other day).


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Pharaoh is well rounded to me, and doesn't need another buff. But for the fun of discussion, it would be fun to see the mummies be able to absorb abilities. I know they are considered gadgets and aren't targetable, but hear me out.

It would make Pharaoh a really strong counter to a hero like an enemy Moon Queen, where the mummies are soaking up moon beams and glaive bounces. Offensively, pairing him with a Demented Shaman to chain heal bombs off mummies would be super fun (but probably OP). Balancing it would be tricky, but enemies can already auto attack the mummies, so if you give the mummies something like 150 health enemy heroes can use aoe spells to clear the wall quickly. It would really complicate games he is in but still a fun exercise to think about.

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Maybe. It doesn't make sense to change a key component of his play that's been around for 11 years. But still a fun thought exercise

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isn't, or atleast wasn't pharaoh + ds a legit combo years ago?
where the mummies actually healbombed?
i seem to recall something like that...
but i'd personally actually like to see his mummies be buffed again in some form, while hellfire could actually take a small hit or two, cause as it is rn in 95% of cases you just max hellfire over anything else only in rare combos are mummies even considered to be maxed (smokebomb).
they really lack something, utility more than damage to be honest.
something that actually promotes getting and even maxing the ability early.

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52 minutes ago, MerryHONmas said:

isn't, or atleast wasn't pharaoh + ds a legit combo years ago?
where the mummies actually healbombed?
i seem to recall something like that...
but i'd personally actually like to see his mummies be buffed again in some form, while hellfire could actually take a small hit or two, cause as it is rn in 95% of cases you just max hellfire over anything else only in rare combos are mummies even considered to be maxed (smokebomb).
they really lack something, utility more than damage to be honest.
something that actually promotes getting and even maxing the ability early.

There was a time when Mummy Walls blocked creeps in with him, that might be what you're thinking. Also possibly with Puzzlebox.

Mummies also used to allow Pharaoh to climb to impossible places, unsure if you can still do that but the option was there (and should still be).


I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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23 hours ago, Hubaris said:

There was a time when Mummy Walls blocked creeps in with him, that might be what you're thinking. Also possibly with Puzzlebox.

Mummies also used to allow Pharaoh to climb to impossible places, unsure if you can still do that but the option was there (and should still be).

to my knowledge mummies could NEVER block creeps in.
and i am extremely certain of this as this in particular is a mechanic i have complained about as it was missing in the past.
i requested mummies be able to trap creeps inside so it can be utilized as a lvl1 ability for lane control
and elementuser himself had stated that this is not possible and creeps would always leak out for mechanical reasons.

the second part you are referring to is blocked path abuse, an exploit that got fixed and i disagree it should have never been a thing to begin with.

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This discussion isn't going anywhere useful & I don't foresee it yielding results that will end up getting a change to Pharaoh (because he's already balanced as is), so I'll archive it.

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