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MerryHONmas

Reworking Empath's Staff effect to benefit her kit more

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I would like to suggest a complete overhaul fo the current Empath Staff Effect.

She is one of the best supports with most autoattacktype carries due to her kit and selfsustainability in early laning phases versus solo lanes.
Arguably not as strong as Voodoo Jester when it comes to aggressiveness but the versatility of her kit makes her one of the stronger supports.

However, as much as I love her, her "invulnerability" state during her ultimate (also referred to as bunkering mechanic) is not only cheap but also boring and just straight up has not a single counter measurement or counterplay, other than prevention with more often than not fails.

So instead of throwing all of her Staff into her ultimate I would like to suggest it be removed from that slot entirely and spread across her other abilities to make them more versatile and viable throughout the entirety of the match.

[Q] Essence Link:
Deals an extra 1% of the opponents current HP and heals you for it.
Targeting an ally allows you to instead heal them for the cost of your own health (values will be the same as with application on opponent, however it is life removal on empath so it will still effect her while inside a host). Essence Link ends early when your Lifepoints reach 1 (non lethal).

[W] Illusory Veil:
(when was this renamed, could ahve sworn it was called "wall"...)
Increases the duration by 1 second and stretches the wall over an additional 50 units radius (+100 units total in length).
Damage type changed to superior damage. (optional)
The wall now acts as a building, thus can be interacted with by certain heroes/abilities.

[E] Synergy:
Passively now also grants an additional 0.5/1/1.5/2 Physical and Magic Armour to all living allies.
-OR-
Doubles the Bonus to the ally under the effect of [R] As One


This effectively takes away her extensive and riskfree bunkering mechanism while simultaneously keeping all of her abilities more relevant into lategame when builds have advanced.
It additionally also makes her less of a "hey i can get three staff effects for the cost of one and a half" punk...

Edited by MerryHONmas

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i could said the SOTM on empath is problem balance issuse when she give carry to much power when she use ultimate. The skill with SOTM have 30 seconds cooldown and with Staff of the Legacy, she give two SOTM buff in just one items.

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17 hours ago, MerryHONmas said:

Doubles the Bonus to the ally under the effect of [R] As One

120 bonus attack speed and 150 bonus damage.
Imagining her sitting in a Madman or Tarot. 😍 Even better than the actual Staff Effect.

All of your other suggestions (1% HP trade, bigger wall, ~10% damage reduction for allies) and removing the old effect would strip her from her core mechanic making her useless in the lategame.

She has a 50/50 winrate, no need to nerf her.

If any of those suggestions except her Ulti boost make it into the game, no more Empath for me for sure.
 

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3 hours ago, Tsar_Bomba said:

120 bonus attack speed and 150 bonus damage.
Imagining her sitting in a Madman or Tarot. 😍 Even better than the actual Staff Effect.

All of your other suggestions (1% HP trade, bigger wall, ~10% damage reduction for allies) and removing the old effect would strip her from her core mechanic making her useless in the lategame.

She has a 50/50 winrate, no need to nerf her.

If any of those suggestions except her Ulti boost make it into the game, no more Empath for me for sure.
 

I am not suggesting a nerf i am suggesting a rework. also you misinterpreted, her e passive is being doubled on the target she uses r on.

and no it doesnt make her useless lategame. it literally is better than what she used to have even and she has always been top 3 support so... thats nonsense no offense.
fact is and remains that the bunkering mechanic is ridiculous, and thats coming from someone who loves playing empath

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1 hour ago, MerryHONmas said:

I am not suggesting a nerf i am suggesting a rework.

Which isn't needed.

1 hour ago, MerryHONmas said:

also you misinterpreted, her e passive is being doubled on the target she uses r on.

Than your suggestions mean to nerf her to the ground.
I have to retreat all positive remarks I made about your suggestions.

1 hour ago, MerryHONmas said:

it literally is better than what she used to have even

Nice joke, no offense.

1 hour ago, MerryHONmas said:

thats coming from someone who loves playing empath

So do I.
I pray that your suggestions will never make it to the game! 🙏

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2 hours ago, Tsar_Bomba said:

Which isn't needed.

Than your suggestions mean to nerf her to the ground.
I have to retreat all positive remarks I made about your suggestions.

Nice joke, no offense.

So do I.
I pray that your suggestions will never make it to the game! 🙏

very constructive... not.
much actual feedback... not.
 

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On 7/31/2020 at 7:48 PM, MerryHONmas said:

[Q] Essence Link:
Deals an extra 1% of the opponents current HP and heals you for it.
Targeting an ally allows you to instead heal them for the cost of your own health (values will be the same as with application on opponent, however it is life removal on empath so it will still effect her while inside a host). Essence Link ends early when your Lifepoints reach 1 (non lethal).

So you're now basically a weaker soul reaper.

On 7/31/2020 at 7:48 PM, MerryHONmas said:

[W] Illusory Veil:
(when was this renamed, could ahve sworn it was called "wall"...)
Increases the duration by 1 second and stretches the wall over an additional 50 units radius (+100 units total in length).
Damage type changed to superior damage. (optional)
The wall now acts as a building, thus can be interacted with by certain heroes/abilities.

I wouldn't pay 1000 for this, even if it wouldn't use an item slot.

On 7/31/2020 at 7:48 PM, MerryHONmas said:

[E] Synergy:
Passively now also grants an additional 0.5/1/1.5/2 Physical and Magic Armour to all living allies.
-OR-
Doubles the Bonus to the ally under the effect of [R] As One

I guess an additional nomes would be helpful, but the numbers would need to be bigger to actually make it viable.
Twice the heal is just pointless.

 

In general: That suggestion would make me never buy staff on Empath again. And since staff is probably the biggest reason to pick Empath, I would pick her much less.
From a staff that changes how you play and makes you choose between "warding on your own" and "following carry 24/7" and when to safe some mana or when to time your ulti to not pop out at a bad moment. And without making Empath totally broken. You want to switch to a boring staff which basically doesn't change anything (but make using her q as a stun, less worthy) and just buffs her other skills to a minor degree.

You could tweak some of those numbers to make that staff a viable option, but you will make Empath a way less fun and versatile hero without any benefits. If you don't like her "bunkering mechanic", you would have to remove that entirely from Empath - which means you need a new ultimate - which makes Empath a totally different hero.

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5 minutes ago, Manu311 said:

So you're now basically a weaker soul reaper.

I wouldn't pay 1000 for this, even if it wouldn't use an item slot.

I guess an additional nomes would be helpful, but the numbers would need to be bigger to actually make it viable.
Twice the heal is just pointless.

 

In general: That suggestion would make me never buy staff on Empath again. And since staff is probably the biggest reason to pick Empath, I would pick her much less.
From a staff that changes how you play and makes you choose between "warding on your own" and "following carry 24/7" and when to safe some mana or when to time your ulti to not pop out at a bad moment. And without making Empath totally broken. You want to switch to a boring staff which basically doesn't change anything (but make using her q as a stun, less worthy) and just buffs her other skills to a minor degree.

You could tweak some of those numbers to make that staff a viable option, but you will make Empath a way less fun and versatile hero without any benefits. If you don't like her "bunkering mechanic", you would have to remove that entirely from Empath - which means you need a new ultimate - which makes Empath a totally different hero.

Amen.

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Bunker mechanic on Empath is fine because it has a short cast range and you're not normally using it to escape (because of its huge potential impact on a team fight and because of the cooldown). 

 

It's much different when it's on another hero (Parasite), though I believe the hero already got nerfs to Infest to combat that

Edited by ElementUser
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11 hours ago, Manu311 said:

So you're now basically a weaker soul reaper.

I wouldn't pay 1000 for this, even if it wouldn't use an item slot.

I guess an additional nomes would be helpful, but the numbers would need to be bigger to actually make it viable.
Twice the heal is just pointless.

 

In general: That suggestion would make me never buy staff on Empath again. And since staff is probably the biggest reason to pick Empath, I would pick her much less.
From a staff that changes how you play and makes you choose between "warding on your own" and "following carry 24/7" and when to safe some mana or when to time your ulti to not pop out at a bad moment. And without making Empath totally broken. You want to switch to a boring staff which basically doesn't change anything (but make using her q as a stun, less worthy) and just buffs her other skills to a minor degree.

You could tweak some of those numbers to make that staff a viable option, but you will make Empath a way less fun and versatile hero without any benefits. If you don't like her "bunkering mechanic", you would have to remove that entirely from Empath - which means you need a new ultimate - which makes Empath a totally different hero.

those are all ontop of each other, it is not an either or.
all of those combined are very decent in value. the armour bonuses get doubled too, 4 armor and 4 magic armour are definitely already worth more than 1.5k if they come in one slot and stack with additional magicarmour items, lets not forget that. all of it together for 2400... thats an extraordinary deal, considering you dont get half of her E for 2000 (nomes).

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21 minutes ago, MerryHONmas said:

those are all ontop of each other, it is not an either or.
all of those combined are very decent in value. the armour bonuses get doubled too, 4 armor and 4 magic armour are definitely already worth more than 1.5k if they come in one slot and stack with additional magicarmour items, lets not forget that. all of it together for 2400... thats an extraordinary deal, considering you dont get half of her E for 2000 (nomes).

I get that - and I said that you can make it worth buying. But none of those "skills" are something that really make all the people want those things. Soul Reaper is no where near a frequent pick - at least not for fun-to-play. Nomes is occasionally picked up but only if heroes match. Not a fun item you have to get either.

If you compare those effects to a storm spirit, tablet, lex, hex - they are definitely less fun. And you even remove satisfaction from stunning with your Q (since you deal more viable damage with that staff).

As far as I can see, your only argument is that "bunkering is boring", which is subjective. It's a pretty unique mechanism and every mechanism can be boring. In current times, I would probably not ever pick Empath if I queue solo, because she's way too dependant on a capable team-mate. But that doesn't make her boring, just situational.

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40 minutes ago, MerryHONmas said:

all of those combined are very decent in value.

In relation to what she can get now for around double the cost? Never ever in life!

41 minutes ago, MerryHONmas said:

the armour bonuses get doubled too, 4 armor and 4 magic armour are definitely already worth more than 1.5k if they come in one slot and stack with additional magicarmour items, lets not forget that. all of it together for 2400... thats an extraordinary deal, considering you dont get half of her E for 2000 (nomes).

Since I wouldn't pick her, no calculations on items to buy for me.
 

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