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I kind of doubt that you would be able to or willing to admit you're wrong on this point and I wrote a much longer post listing all the things that you've done to limit frustration. But I think we agree on the basic premise. No matter the good or bad things of the patching since you took over from WZA (and it has been far more consistent and less all over the place) the one unifying factor is limiting frustration.


So instead of listing the dozen or so meta changes you've made to limit it and listing my reasons for why I think limiting frustration is bad I'll ask you first.
Why do you think that limiting frustration is good? 


Edit: also yeah, I was permanently banned from the boards after criticizing you over Nitro, I figured the database of bans not being transfered over was intentional was intentional otherwise you need to learn or more likely remember to do that if you feel that people previously banned should stay so. 

 

Edited by Ondis
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Your post has quite a few premises & is largely an overarching game design question, so it's tough to fully answer your question.  I'll try my best to explain & break it down, but the main iss

Well Predator is a garbage hero anyway so It's not really an issue.

You literally told a staff member (not even to mention that it was directed towards myself, one of the staff members who want to help HoN the most) to f*** themselves if Nitro was reworked. You should

Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Ondis said:

I kind of doubt that you would be able to or willing to admit you're wrong on this point and I wrote a much longer post listing all the things that you've done to limit frustration. But I think we agree on the basic premise. No matter the good or bad things of the patching since you took over from WZA (and it has been far more consistent and less all over the place) the one unifying factor is limiting frustration.


So instead of listing the dozen or so meta changes you've made to limit it and listing my reasons for why I think limiting frustration is bad I'll ask you first.
Why do you think that limiting frustration is good? 


Edit: also yeah, I was permanently banned from the boards after criticizing you over Nitro, I figured the database of bans not being transfered over was intentional was intentional otherwise you need to learn or more likely remember to do that if you feel that people previously banned should stay so. 

 

You literally told a staff member (not even to mention that it was directed towards myself, one of the staff members who want to help HoN the most) to f*** themselves if Nitro was reworked. You should actually be happy I'm responding to you at all - every kind of forum/discussion board would ban you for that. That was a pure rage post by you & it was inappropriate in any kind of capacity. That's actual ad-hominem, and you lose all credibility if you resort to it. There's absolutely no defense for you in any kind of circumstance & you should apologize for that post.

 

The onus of limiting frustration should be on your end to explain, not mine. Isn't it obvious why limiting frustration would lead to a positive outcome? Would you as a player want to be frustrated when playing a game (in the sense that you can't have reasonable counterplay against something or have to really go out of your way to do it)? If you say yes, I don't think there's any point in having any kind of further discussion on that topic.

 

From the tones of your 2 most recent posts & the ones I recall from the past, it seems like you have an underlying problem with HoN that's just largely opinionated & biased, or you just simply disagree with me as a designer on the fundamental design of HoN. You can vent as long as you don't actually break the forum rules & offend others personally, but not everyone is going to agree with your opinion.

 

I would like for you to keep in mind what would happen if you magically got the changes you wanted for HoN - do you think the game would overall be a healthier game for the large majority of the game? Would it extend the lifetime of the game? Would people even want to play your game? You have to consider that above all else, not everything you think is good for the game is actually good for the game in reality when considering these out-of-game factors, aside from balance & design alone.

Edited by ElementUser
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16 hours ago, ElementUser said:

You literally told a staff member (not even to mention that it was directed towards myself, one of the staff members who want to help HoN the most) to f*** themselves if Nitro was reworked. You should actually be happy I'm responding to you at all - every kind of forum/discussion board would ban you for that. That was a pure rage post by you & it was inappropriate in any kind of capacity. That's actual ad-hominem, and you lose all credibility if you resort to it. There's absolutely no defense for you in any kind of circumstance & you should apologize for that post.

 

The onus of limiting frustration should be on your end to explain, not mine. Isn't it obvious why limiting frustration would lead to a positive outcome? Would you as a player want to be frustrated when playing a game (in the sense that you can't have reasonable counterplay against something or have to really go out of your way to do it)? If you say yes, I don't think there's any point in having any kind of further discussion on that topic.

 

From the tones of your 2 most recent posts & the ones I recall from the past, it seems like you have an underlying problem with HoN that's just largely opinionated & biased, or you just simply disagree with me as a designer on the fundamental design of HoN. You can vent as long as you don't actually break the forum rules & offend others personally, but not everyone is going to agree with your opinion.

 

I would like for you to keep in mind what would happen if you magically got the changes you wanted for HoN - do you think the game would overall be a healthier game for the large majority of the game? Would it extend the lifetime of the game? Would people even want to play your game? You have to consider that above all else, not everything you think is good for the game is actually good for the game in reality when considering these out-of-game factors, aside from balance & design alone.

HoN was perfectly fine and was the best balanced moba ever before 4.0. Before those Adrenalines, before those powercreeping. I played HoN so much in those days and I think it was the best times, you were 1700-1800 and you played with such players, of course sometimes it happened that you had 1700-1800 player that was 0/20 but still game was in best, healthiest state ever. So sad staff members made so many mistakes through the time so HoN is now forgotten. P2P, EA, bans for abusing glitches, bans for verbal abuse, 15 heroes avaibility with rotation, resetting stats for smurfs for free so they can stomp noobs and average players, powercreeping, 3.9-4.0+ patches and so on. Who was approving those movements lol? How could that even pass? Its like shooting ur own foot.

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2 hours ago, ensid said:

HoN was perfectly fine and was the best balanced moba ever before 4.0. Before those Adrenalines, before those powercreeping. I played HoN so much in those days and I think it was the best times, you were 1700-1800 and you played with such players, of course sometimes it happened that you had 1700-1800 player that was 0/20 but still game was in best, healthiest state ever. So sad staff members made so many mistakes through the time so HoN is now forgotten. P2P, EA, bans for abusing glitches, bans for verbal abuse, 15 heroes avaibility with rotation, resetting stats for smurfs for free so they can stomp noobs and average players, powercreeping, 3.9-4.0+ patches and so on. Who was approving those movements lol? How could that even pass? Its like shooting ur own foot.

Those were Garena's strict orders at the time, for post-4.0 imbalances and power creep so it was unavoidable. 

We warned them countless times that it was not the correct the move to do.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the patches for the last 2 years were focused on reversing these changes. And here we are, back at a more appropriate overall power level for the game.

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36 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

Those were Garena's strict orders at the time, for post-4.0 imbalances and power creep so it was unavoidable. 

We warned them countless times that it was not the correct the move to do.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the patches for the last 2 years were focused on reversing these changes. And here we are, back at a more appropriate overall power level for the game.

Yes I know but the game is nothing right now altho we all appreciate your work. Still FoC map for me is unbelieveable disgusting and unplayable so I stick to midwars from time to time. 

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I dont understand why FB let Garena decide what the game needed. That company only focus on making money as fast as possible. Look at how many game they dumbed down.

Even now, no company would chose Garena to public their game anymore unless they have no choice

HoN SEA Player

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I kind of doubt that you would be able to or willing to admit you're wrong on this point and I wrote a much longer post listing all the things that you've done to limit frustration. But I think we agree on the basic premise. No matter the good or bad things of the patching since you took over from WZA (and it has been far more consistent and less all over the place) the one unifying factor is limiting frustration.


So instead of listing the dozen or so meta changes you've made to limit it and listing my reasons for why I think lmiting frustration is bad I'll ask you first.
Why do you think that limiting frustration is good? 
 

On 8/2/2020 at 7:11 PM, ElementUser said:

You literally told a staff member (not even to mention that it was directed towards myself, one of the staff members who want to help HoN the most) to f*** themselves if Nitro was reworked. You should actually be happy I'm responding to you at all - every kind of forum/discussion board would ban you for that. That was a pure rage post by you & it was inappropriate in any kind of capacity. That's actual ad-hominem, and you lose all credibility if you resort to it. There's absolutely no defense for you in any kind of circumstance & you should apologize for that post.

 

The onus of limiting frustration should be on your end to explain, not mine. Isn't it obvious why limiting frustration would lead to a positive outcome? Would you as a player want to be frustrated when playing a game (in the sense that you can't have reasonable counterplay against something or have to really go out of your way to do it)? If you say yes, I don't think there's any point in having any kind of further discussion on that topic.

 

From the tones of your 2 most recent posts & the ones I recall from the past, it seems like you have an underlying problem with HoN that's just largely opinionated & biased, or you just simply disagree with me as a designer on the fundamental design of HoN. You can vent as long as you don't actually break the forum rules & offend others personally, but not everyone is going to agree with your opinion.

 

I would like for you to keep in mind what would happen if you magically got the changes you wanted for HoN - do you think the game would overall be a healthier game for the large majority of the game? Would it extend the lifetime of the game? Would people even want to play your game? You have to consider that above all else, not everything you think is good for the game is actually good for the game in reality when considering these out-of-game factors, aside from balance & design alone.



Eh, I mean you'll probably fall back on "not discussing moderator actions in public" or some lame excuse this time.but if I remember correctly the story was more akin to you not allowing a particular line of discussion among forum members (not you and forum members) and me telling you to fuck of if you can't handle people discussing your reworks. 

Regardless a permanent ban was a bit harsh. This is why I liked Maliken, inspite of everything the man had some spine. He could dish it out but he could also take it and his ethos is what made this game so amazing, inspite of his many faults.  Now this will be relevant lower down in the post.  
_
 

 

 


About frustration:

I mean I could send you this if you'd actually read it?
I'm not saying you're the exception here. Most people do not want to change their beliefs or have them challenged, especially when they are in a position of authority. : http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A821653&dswid=-781



I think you fall in a totally different category of people and players to those that enjoyed and made this game what it was early on.
Your style and your ethos and thus your design choices are much different to that of early S2.


Let's just point out the taunts and announcers.
They are meant to cause frustration (on one side) - or anger, resentment, etc... and a sense of accomplishment and pride on the other. I bet if you had a say they wouldn't have looked quite the way they do. Maybe we'd not even have custom avatars but generic trash like in other games ?  Heck there's a Devo-skin that says "Come here you b i t c h". It's probably a word already censored in the forum and something that I imagine today could lead (if repeated) to a ban in game. 

This game, despite being in a state of disrepair for a long while survived because it's or "was" hardcore. And it was hardcore because punishment and  reward were so enormous. Mistakes cost dearly AND it catered to that segment of the population.

And this is something that would be self evident if you were that type of player. But I can bring up more casual examples instead of university papers. There's a reason why Counter Strike became the popular game it is. Its main innovation was a timer. A timer of frustration. Where if you failed too much too early you'd be punished with less play. You'd have to wait for your team to finnish. It was an innovation. And it created a sense of accomplishment to stay alive and be in a situation of 5v1 and sitll win that previous FPS games with their dethmatch or CTF didn't have. 


__

TL DR (exemplified positive frustration (working hard, with small margins as a support in the past) with negative  - imposed -  frustration (being forced to every game buy an item to stay competetive with the other support): 

 

Spoiler

I'll also just give you one example of negative frustration as per the Uppsala science article that you've created attempting to bridge or remove what in my opinion is positive frustration. Though there are plenty, dozens of them that I might list later. 


So in adding the Orb of Zamos you've created an intended or obvious negative consequence insofar that you're more or less forced to buy the item because it is so big of an advantage to have it. As several people here expressed it was a positive thing to nerf it because the frustration they felt from a limitation imposed from above that they could do nothing about was creating a monotome and repetitive shopping experience. Still it can never be amended really because it's like Nitro but in the other direction. People only buy it because it gives a huge, gold bonus down the road. If the gold bonus becomes meager it will cause a disbalance towards the roaming part with early ganks becoming too strong against someone who happens to buy an orb.  There's no sweet middle per se, because it will like Nitro become a liability with bad players and early on and too strong as time goes on ?


But it brings with it something else as well, a forced type of gameplay.
I used to enjoy roaming with Valk for example. Together with old Nitro it's one of those things I was very good at. Consistently I'll get FBs and easily rack up 5-0-0 or 2-0-3 or what ever in the first 10-15 minutes. 

But I've noticed that despite of this, I tend to on average lose these games nowdays. Even when I try-hard on silver. 
So I've started thinking and calculating and I've figured that despite the kills I make, the people that just stand and sit and farm and exp with an orb still gain more gold and certainly more experience in the long run. If my team isn't able to carry the game and exploit the advantage early on we tend to fall behind. 

Now I find this to be an unintended consequence but it falls into one of many intended or unintended limitations of gameplay that come about from streamlining in general. I could expand from this. The jungle changes both now and earlier have made stacking easier and more necessary.  The cheaper wards make it safer. Together with the Orb it's far superior to roaming if done very consistently.   

The support being a lot less squishy and dependent on not dying nowdays means that there's fewer comeback oppurtunities. Going for a squishy support was a way to come back in the game before. A "free" 200 gold if you could find him or her. It's not quite the same anymore. 

And this is just giving you a trail of thought from one point. The orb.  I could pick several such points and make a tree structure of limitations imposed. 


Further more this is one of the few games that still can get me agitated despite being a 30 year old professional by now. 
I find that a good thing. I love coming here, really fucking going for it and feeling those emotions man. Trashtalking a bit, rekking, getting rekked you know. You don't seem to like that kind of thing, considering you permanently banned me for a fuck off. 

I sometimes try to play DoTA but I just don't care as much. I don't know exactly what it is. It could be the less pronounced graphics, the slower turn animations. 
But it could also be the more benign community, the lack of epic taunts and and announcers, the pronounced stats, the  death penalty based on how much you've died and so on. But I feel less and less emotional about HoN. And I'd say that's a bad thing. Because its the one thing that makes my experience unique at least.  With each update, I've felt a little bit less when I played this game. It's starting to feel just like any other moba. 

Edited by Ondis
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I dont know, maybe Im a bit harsh here.   I liked Goldenveil he is a fun hero with a unique mechanic and I think you're balances are fine stat wise in terms of what you're trying to do.  The apple and lunar tea is kinda nice too! Certainly makes it a *bit more* hardcore :)!
I haven't bought a multiplayer game except for Sim-racing that I've liked in a long time that's all. 

 

Everything is so casual. Except in like Sim and War-strategy but then it's so hardcore and you need to spend like 70 usd per plane or 30 per car to get something.  That good hardcore mass appeal kind of thing seems gone.  I guess it kinda survives in these PUBG like clones or like Z-day stuff where if you die you lose your stuff and there's only one life per round and stuff like that.  MMORPGs too, used to be tons of things like TIbia, UO, Eve Online... there's really nothing new like that where if you die you get fucked. Yet there's clearly a market since these old relics still survive, Runescape too.  I don't blame you for taking the path you and probably G-Arena have made up your minds for. I just wish it wasn't and I can't help but complain like an old dog that will never learn to sit ? 

Starcraft isn't casual I guess but I just don't have the reaction time for that anymore. 

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4 hours ago, w3_StarBoy said:

I dont understand why FB let Garena decide what the game needed.

Try going to work and telling your boss that you aren't going to do what they say...

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2 minutes ago, budaslap said:

Try going to work and telling your boss that you aren't going to do what they say...

Even Blizzard can't do that. Tons of ex employees have born witness of how Activision ruined the company inside out and we know what EA does with the studios it buys. 
The worst thing about capitalism is acquisition. If there's anything I'd regulate it's that (after health hazards I guess). You can't just buy shit and add it to your corporate portfolio. 


There are generally two types of acquisitions. "Hold for value" and "milk it for what its worth". 
There was a long time Blizzard was owned by a "hold for value" corp that invested in it from a long term perspective. 

Then Activision got ahold of it and its stock soared obviously as it was milking the IP for all it was worth. 

EA used to milk, deplete value and then buy an other studio, rince and repeat. 

Though I honestly don't know what G-Arena is doing . 

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1 hour ago, Ondis said:

Even Blizzard can't do that. Tons of ex employees have born witness of how Activision ruined the company inside out and we know what EA does with the studios it buys. 
The worst thing about capitalism is acquisition. If there's anything I'd regulate it's that (after health hazards I guess). You can't just buy shit and add it to your corporate portfolio. 


There are generally two types of acquisitions. "Hold for value" and "milk it for what its worth". 
There was a long time Blizzard was owned by a "hold for value" corp that invested in it from a long term perspective. 

Then Activision got ahold of it and its stock soared obviously as it was milking the IP for all it was worth. 

EA used to milk, deplete value and then buy an other studio, rince and repeat. 

Though I honestly don't know what G-Arena is doing . 

That is so incorrect...
Blizzard started going to shit years before Activision got involved.
Difference is that the public oppinion had not been affected by it by that point as people continued to overglorify it.
Activision just ended up being the last big hiccup that finally publicly ruined blizzard. but trust me, it had happened ALOT of years before that already.

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He speaks the truth, this game used to be hardcore & unforgiving, and that meant something, right now its just how can we make noobs feel better about themselfs when they play like crap.

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Posted (edited)

Players like Ondis have a point with the hardcore/punishing part of the game & I can empathize with how they feel. HoN still very much is a hardcore game & you can still snowball pretty easily. Players who play horribly still get punished pretty hard & it's still enough to lose their team a game.

 

It's just some factors, like repeatedly picking on supports, have had the impact factor diminished because again, it's not considered a healthy play pattern. Killing a support shouldn't give gold close to the average player on the the team. Factors like GPM difference between the game's/team's average GPM take care of this as the support is already down & you're making it worse if you keep on killing them, making it that much harder for them to have an impact on the game later if you keep killing them. That's why items like Orb of Zamos, Grave Locket, Tome of Elements help them out - and even with those items, if they're still getting picked on at least they have a chance to at least adapt to why the opposing team is able to kill them so easily. They're still underperforming by a huge margin even with all that help - I don't see the problem here.

 

The goal of the game is to give all roles a fair chance to make their unique impact on the game matter at various points of the game, even if they're down. One of the ways any hero can adapt to the game is buying items to help them in their specific situation. The rubberbanding mechanic in our game is not as strong as Dota2's, so snowball factors really make a difference in a game's outcome compared to Dota2, and it's important to actually balance out the extent of snowballing vs. the extent of rubberbanding - otherwise, you run into games becoming too long & diminishing the aspect of certain roles like support unless you do what Dota2 does & give every hero ridiculous power, while accentuating other roles disproportionately (like carries).

 

Also @Ondis, regarding "must-pick" items like Orb of Zamos for supports - you can say the same thing for Hatchet for carries, Iron Buckler & Logger's Hatchet for certain heroes who jungle, Marchers for all heroes so that they keep up with the rest of the game's mobility, Bottle for mid laners that have strong rune control abilities, etc. To really capitalize on certain advantages/traits in a min-max manner,  you do have to pick certain items. That's just how it is for every game (not just HoN). Devil's advocate can say that you have to pick up X/Y/Z as core items for a hero no matter what the game or else you'll fail. It's Runed Cleaver for heroes like The Dark Lady, Magebane, etc. Need I go on?

 

I would say that early game itemization diversity is something that we've been working on as you can see from the list of recent changes (Orb of Zamos nerfs, Golden Apple & Lunar Tear), so it's not like the issue is as big of a deal as players make it out to be when they equate "making games easier = babying the noobs" or other kinds of similar sentiments.

 

At this point, it's fair to say that we can agree to disagree. I will say that much of HoN's elements that make it HoN, that makes players want to play with the adrenaline rush/endorphin rush feeling when you get a kill/wipe a team and it feels way different than other MOBAs - it's still there. It's just not as lopsided as it used to be is all.

Edited by ElementUser
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Yeah but the problem here is not the Orb in of itself dude. 
It's just one example. I liked Merricks bounty a bit more because it evened out the gold a bit without forcing you to commit to it. And it worked for roamers too because of the large radius and the way it functioned. 


It's the problem of limiting frustration, including positive frustration. So I'd like your perspective on that. Because as I said I could list dozens of examples of design choices that whether I think of them as good or bad had the unifying point of limiting frustration and making the game less hardcore.   While in some cases as this they've added negative frustration that cannot be overcome. And yeah, this includes hatchets, and now hatchets are a near must buy on ranged heroes as well. At that point you might as well boost everyones initial attack.  But at least it's jsut 200 gold. As was Merricks. The orb is especially destructive because supports were supposed to be able to add variety through their initial purchases. You even limited the initial variety by increasing the price of the bottle by 50 gold. So you can't go for a boosted mid anymore but nor can you really go say ring of teachers as a first item. 


And when it comes to other design choices they are built into the design of the game now.  Choices have been streamlined, heroes have been streamlined, mechanics and map have been simplified.  And you can't even tell people to fuck off anymore ;D  It's still there to a degree, yes... but it's limited. And every choice or nearly every choice in patching has been limiting it rather than adding to it. 

And it's of course surrounded by the various meta choices that limit "frustration" such as unkillable couriers, lower pause times, lower afk times now, heck even the safe teleport thing that was imported from DotA 2 which is an option. That thing kills me every time I install the game and I know of nobody that uses it. But it was only included I guess, because DotA has it. And DotA still has some hardcore elements like fighting over the runes. And on the topic of the runes, of course you made the merrick rune. And there's no early kong and so on - I really could go on ?

Again it limits frustration, that's all it does, it limits the feeling of failure and heck in this case I even like it. I think the difference was a bit too big. But from the greater perspective almost every change is in this direction. 


It doesn't make logical sense. If the game was so negatively frustrating in the past it wouldn't have grown as huge as it did. So clearly you need  or should review the concept of positive frustration and begin adding it back to retain your core demographic bla bla bla.  

So it's not like every individual change is bad, it's that the sum total is a clear downward trend into casualness.  And why? 
You know I said I understand it from a business perspective but to tell you the truth I don't. What kind of gamers are you trying to attract, are you trying to compete with DotAs demographic? Or worse LoLs?`

And why would they switch? 

 

 

Edited by Ondis
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I'll tell  you why I basically stopped playing Hon in general, and it was not just the new map, or power creep strategy a bit before 4.0 and after.

I played most of time mid lane and I think I was good at it, I could almost mid with any hero and win the lane or at least not lose it in my bracket and I was 1600-1850 (through all years). I was a big factor to the team, I ganked, helped, tp'ed when team was in need, even kept warding.

I loved to play heroes like Gladiator, Gauntlet, Deadwood, Drunken Master (mostly strength heroes) and as I said most of time I won the lane and was dominating like 5-0, 10-0, 10-2, 6-1 etc with plenty of assists but with each and every patch I figured out my impact on the game was getting lower and lower. As a mid ganker, when I won mid lane or even owned my enemy I had enough resources to place 1 ward in enemy jungle and place 1 ward at entrace to my jungle, so my carry could farm without harm, I could buy good items and pick off outpositioned support or low health carry if not protected everytime off cooldowns and I was still a threat to enemy team even tho I was not a carry. With every patch, gold income, gold lose on death etc enemy team was recovering so fast, supports literally doing nothing and getting more experience and gold, more than me, so players that roamed, ganked a lot (sometimes without success) ended up being not worthy to do so, in that situation it was much more profitable to just farm lane or as a support stick to your carry like a leech and do nothing. You couldn't solo gank such player that sticks to a carry nor the carry because he has support on his back all the time. Killing a support or carry that outpositioned himself was no longer profitable because gold income was so high and the penalty for death was so low especially if he died x time in a row by your hard that you actually wasted more hunting those players rather than just farming woods or lane. With every patch as a mid player, even if I performed perfectly I was so useless much faster than before, of course with time those heroes fall off because the potential of nuke was not that high later in game but still it became faster than ever. Back in the days I could secure my carry a safe farming, help other lane, gank woods and focus on their carry all the time, gaining control of map, gaining good experience and gold while taking enemy team gold and their time when they were dead, on top of that if played properly and their lanes were controlled by my team they couldn't even farm, because their lanes were pushed to our towers and I was roaming their jungle, so due to their extremaly cautious game they couldn't farm so efficient. And then it was all gone, you could dominate game but you no longer could even kill a support, because even tho he kept dying he still gaining experience and gold so fast from recover and penalties for killing same player over and over my power wear off. 

I was never big fan of high death penalties, it was frustrating most of time to lose big chunk of gold everytime you die but reducing it so badly and making the game so easy to recover made me stick to 1600 and max 1700 because I no longer could almost solo win the early game and then rely on my farmed carries with me on the front line still being a high threat or literally sometimes win the game solo (with some luck) by ganking enemy team so hard they rather start a new game instead of getting wrecked in this one.

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@ensidI think that's a symptom of not being able to outsmart the enemy. You just have to be super consistent now, like in HotS.



If you really know the mechanics of twitchy heroes and play them well like Silhoutte or Bubbles or stuff like this you can still dominate completely but it's becoming harder and harder to outsmart and outmanouver people.  

Wards are too cheap, cost gets refunded, stacking is easy, loss on death is low, orb helps with xp and gold. 

So "moves" you make have a smaller value and if the moves fail you've lost too much for not farming.


Game's become more like HoTS where you have to saturate those lanes and have everything stacked at every moment when you're not fighting and keep in range of the orb when every ou can.  It's even more important now with the new jungle because its so much easier to stack and in late game the old ancient patch is obviously worth less now so you clear the jungle much faster if you're just roaming through it. 

It's much less a "solo" game and much more a team game.
Both in terms of like a carry looking for kills and a support looking not to get killed. These matter less now. 

Edited by Ondis
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34 minutes ago, Ondis said:

@ensidI think that's a symptom of not being able to outsmart the enemy. You just have to be super consistent now, like in HotS.



If you really know the mechanics of twitchy heroes and play them well like Silhoutte or Bubbles or stuff like this you can still dominate completely but it's becoming harder and harder to outsmart and outmanouver people.  

Wards are too cheap, cost gets refunded, stacking is easy, loss on death is low, orb helps with xp and gold. 

So "moves" you make have a smaller value and if the moves fail you've lost too much for not farming.


Game's become more like HoTS where you have to saturate those lanes and have everything stacked at every moment when you're not fighting and keep in range of the orb when every ou can.  It's even more important now with the new jungle because its so much easier to stack and in late game the old ancient patch is obviously worth less now so you clear the jungle much faster if you're just roaming through it. 

It's much less a "solo" game and much more a team game.
Both in terms of like a carry looking for kills and a support looking not to get killed. These matter less now. 

I think back in the days there were much more options, you could go support, roamer, mid, off lane, carry, jungle, tri lane. 

TL;DR game was more friendly for solo players, I could dominate game as solo player as almost every hero that has any chances in 1v1, in same time help, gank other lanes, get weaker with every minute but still be a threat to enemy team and now that playstyle is forgotten and everygame is this shitty jungler + sui with is disgusting and it's for few years now. FoC for me is dead, I tried not long time ago play some FoC games and played like 6 games, I believe in every match somebody left or griefed so...

And that's not the symptom of not being able to outsmart enemy team. Back in the days I could outsmart them, outplay them and win the game. First playing solo as mid player, then around ~12-15min+ sticking just with the team and being a great player overall, improving a lot and even adding more to my playstyle. Now I cant do shit alone, I kill people and I get nothing, they don't do crap and still keep buying exclusive items, no great penalties for being noob. I'll stick to my opinion, I knew how it was and I knew how for example mid lane was important to win. Of course sometimes I lost mid lane, because of mistake for example but I could turn the table by literally leaving mid and focusing on side lanes and in that way outfarm enemy team including mid, because he farmed it ignoring everything and I had no chance anymore to face him there so by owning side lanes and his ignorance I could manage to win it and still be a big part. It's not like Im a typical solo player that goes jungle for 20min and try to be son goku leaving it and then dominating. You have a great vision how my games looked, quick winning mid -> helping out my side lanes as much as possible -> helping with wards and counterwards if had enough resources -> hunting enemy outpositioned heroes from time to time -> securing carries between trees in emergency if he got ganked and even sacrificing so I wasnt typical solo noobish selfish player, I just cant do what I always did anymore. I had this style for years and was perfectly fine with that. I even became good sui player despite I despise that playstyle. I was versatile and I think a decent player, wasnt bad/noob altho sometimes had worse games, wasnt average but also I wasnt high tier nor pro. I was satisfied where I was, how I performed unfortunately company's policy took me my pleasure from playing this game and I wont spend my precious time playing a game that kills my individuality in my game sense. I know I can still play that style but not with that impact anymore, so Ill stick to midwars. If only my account wasnt that filled with custom stuff, tons of avatars etc I would just delete it and never play it again

Edited by ensid
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In my very biased Opinion,

 

Patch discussion seems derailed to its objective and people are tired of saying same things, insanitarious, knowing that their comment bears no weight and be adhered no longer.

as a Solo player, over the years I enjoy the game so much especially from the trolls/smurfs and earned to be an all rounder with off/anti meta strategy from them, I learned to adapt to things am not comfortable with. Before 4.0 i used more than 50 heroes and enjoy the hell out of them but now 10 heroes tops and 20 if I play with a friend and now lesser because of the nerfs to heroes that were balanced. When a hero is nerfed, might as well considered it dead and expect it to be one of the infamous at the bottom of the most used hero. Am now using the patch notes and mark heroes that are fun to play against because its easy as heck. Back then, you can pretty much predict 1-2 players at most but now everyone is an AI and why bother to think critically when you can predict the course of the game in the matter of 15min or worst of them all is during pick phase or stats.

 

@Ondis  expressed MOST of solo players inner thoughts so kudos to him. I guessed this player experienced 8 games FOC or more in the matter of 3hours trainwreck fast pacing intense game. Once you exp'd that, you never go back. (a 40min game is retarded af)


Seeing the game you love becoming a "generic low quality" MOBA truely is a heart breaking. Aint palying DOTA2 coz its full of players with playstyle that i hate the most, to hell with rubberbanding mechs. LoL is full of entitled immatured kids and manbaby w/ META that should stick to your role, low versatility MOBA, secondary objective greatly impacts the main in which it should be a small suppliment in the 1st place.

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On 8/4/2020 at 4:05 AM, ElementUser said:

Killing a support shouldn't give gold close to the average player on the the team. Factors like GPM difference between the game's/team's average GPM take care of this as the support is already down & you're making it worse if you keep on killing them, making it that much harder for them to have an impact on the game later if you keep killing them.

This system is a bit broken in Midwars as everyone has huge GPM.  But if you could base it on net GPM, probably for Midwars only, that would be good.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/31/2020 at 7:42 AM, Mefer said:

The predator nerf is like non-existent. It's not even felt.

Well, his win rate dropped by a good 4-5% after a week's worth of data.

Seems like it did do something. It was also a super tiny change (-1s duration, +2s cooldown at max level), changing its uptime from 50% to roughly 37.5%.

Edited by ElementUser
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9 minutes ago, AleshaLove said:

"Mute Ping Announcer" doesn't work.With this option enabled, I can still hear allies spamming signals.Very irritating.

That's not what that does. It mutes the ping wheel chat announcer.

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