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ElementUser

4.8.5 Patch - Discussion

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Please talk about the patch in this thread once you've actually played at least a few games in the new patch.

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I only have played one game in new patch and the healing speed in the hellburne well seems slow. 

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53 minutes ago, Loli`pot said:

I only have played one game in new patch and the healing speed in the hellburne well seems slow. 

If you have definitive proof, please report that in Bug Reports & make sure to include the map. There shouldn't be any changes related to that.

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Whenever I play EU servers, I usually get 180 to 210 ping , now I get 400... any changes that could have make this happen ?

 

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Can't download the patch because the game crashdumps every time it's closed. Where the hell can I manually apply the patch, since the game is a 12 year old turd that continually has problems?

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Posted (edited)

Question

Does neutral creep stat change also going include the old map in SEA ??

Edited by w3_StarBoy

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Doctor Repulsor is broken, honestly.

I played a few games with him and am currently 6-1 with him, granted this was only gold/low diamond bracket. He deals so much damage in such a short time when you combo his spells and attack resets properly. He has such a huge power spike at level 3 when he has 3 spells for maximum laning phase harassment, and another power spike at level 6 when he has his Ulty. Yea, not being able to BKB/Sheep when leaving ult is kindof annoying but he has recieved SO MUCH damage in return, it's honestly sickening how much burst damage he has, it's like a Pebbles but ranged and with a free PK at level 6.

Here I am gonna post some example combos to calculate how much damage Doc can deal at these power spike windows:

Level 3: ~61 Attack damage with items, Attacks enemy (61 damage), Casts Q , Attacks again with E boost with attack cooldown reset (101 damage), Stuns enemy, drawing them into the Q bomb (105 damage) and attacks again with E boost (101 damage). Grand total of 368 damage before mitigation, with multiple slows and a stun too. Literally HALF of an enemy's healthpool gone in an instant. And the combo barely consumes less than 30% of Doc's mana, whereas a Pebbles would be out of mana at this point.

Level 6, ~75 attack damage, with max points in E: Flies in with R (minor damage), Attacks enemy he collides into (155 Damage), Casts Q and attacks again (155 damage), Casts W, drawing them into Q bomb (105 Damage) and attacks again (155 damage), and let's say Doc has enough leftover mana to cast R two more times to deal two more boosted autoattacks (155 damage each)(additional minor damage from R), We're looking at roughly 880 pre-mitigation damage total, with multiple slows and a stun to boot. That's almost an entire hero's healthpool at that stage of the game, and that's not even counting other variables such as ally help, or an enemy having reduced health from laning phase harassment, or runes.

I love this new combo-oriented Doc and I am enjoying these free wins but even I have to admit that his damage output is in need of nerfs. Maybe you can nerf his damage in exchange for granting him the ability to BKB after leaving ulty? Would be appreciated.

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Astrolabe and Striders costing more as a support is kind of painful. 😕
Grave Locket having less utility kind of makes sense, but in general "life is harder for supports across the board" is the only tangible thing I'm noticing so far.

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Nitro:

(Q) This ability in the current objective of the game has little impact. Most of the damage he could do to his opponent is on the ground.
Rework: The attack splits and damages enemy units directly behind the target and provides additional attack range.
As per the heroic Psychic Blades skill TEMPLAR ASSASSIN (d0ta)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=TujHkI7r5Lw&feature=emb_logo


(W) I would like it to be better used instead of fending off, the opponent would be thrown into the air for longer.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/29/2020 at 5:41 PM, Floofboy said:

Astrolabe and Striders costing more as a support is kind of painful. 😕
Grave Locket having less utility kind of makes sense, but in general "life is harder for supports across the board" is the only tangible thing I'm noticing so far.

I would also add that removing the ancient camp in main jungles eliminates an area of impact for support players to greatly help their team when stacking. Stacking a medium camp is a much less profitable investment.

On the same change Parasite and Ophelia Staff effects are much weaker now with only 1 ancient camp which is unfortunate.

However double stacking and stacking from lane is a little easier which is a good improvement

Edited by Hon3ynuts

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Meeeeh. I was excited about every HoN patch, now patches in HoN are like:
This hero was underpowered so we increase his armor by 1.
Next patch:
Change was to strong, armor was decreased by 2. 

Cmon what the hell is this? You have so many heroes without sotm effect and all you do is buffing/nerfing same sotm effects.

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2 hours ago, DemonSparda said:

Meeeeh. I was excited about every HoN patch, now patches in HoN are like:
This hero was underpowered so we increase his armor by 1.
Next patch:
Change was to strong, armor was decreased by 2. 

Cmon what the hell is this? You have so many heroes without sotm effect and all you do is buffing/nerfing same sotm effects.

I have the same thought as you at first, but just see the link I shared above for the reason behind that.


This thread below is still updating, just keep in touch to it:

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, DemonSparda said:

Meeeeh. I was excited about every HoN patch, now patches in HoN are like:
This hero was underpowered so we increase his armor by 1.
Next patch:
Change was to strong, armor was decreased by 2. 

Cmon what the hell is this? You have so many heroes without sotm effect and all you do is buffing/nerfing same sotm effects.

It's called micro balancing to fine-tune heroes. It's not a hard concept to grasp. 

 

Also, this patch there were tons of other changes that took tons of work to actually do and have a big impact on the game. (like the map changes), and this is what you complain about? 

 

You also do know it's hard to come up with quality SotM effects that also don't end up breaking the game, right? That's why not every hero has one yet.

Edited by ElementUser

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3 minutes ago, ElementUser said:

You also do know it's hard to come up with quality SotM effects that also don't end up breaking the game, right? That's why not every hero has one yet.

Yeah, especially when i suggested to SomaZ Hammerstorm sotm idea back in 2015 and didn't even got minor totem when it was implemented.🤣 

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I'm just saying... My staff suggestion for Engi...

 

Tasty and balanced 😉

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11 hours ago, Mefer said:

The predator nerf is like non-existent. It's not even felt.

Well Predator is a garbage hero anyway so It's not really an issue.

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There's another big issue I wanted to address in regards to the AFK timer in Mid Wars - I'm sure I'm not the only player encountering this problem where I get a notification from the system saying that "I am in danger of being kicked for AFK", which is complete BS obviously because I am just hanging out near the T1 towers trying to leech experience and there's no fights going on. I've even seen teammates being unfairly kicked from games even when they try to cast buffs or whatever because the AFK timer is now way too short, here's an example match ID where Legion's Accursed gets kicked by salty teammates due to the afk timer being so damn short: Match ID #159585400. Obviously Legion loses this game.

 

Can we revert the AFK timer changes for Mid Wars please? Or make it so that afk kicks can only happen if the ENTIRE team votes yes on the matter instead of 3/4? Thank you.

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2 hours ago, Sorais said:

Still no patch on Garena, wtf.

 

You can post your thoughts in that thread if you'd like, since I know SEA didn't get patched yet.

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@EU 

 

Why should heroes be perfectly balanced to each other? What I mean is that there may be heroes few players play really well but others can't play i.e. skill ceilings may be different. 

In other cases certain heroes may only be good in certain compositions? 

Or rather balancing itself is semantics.

What I mean is that rather than thinking about concepts and cool mechanics or combo potentials you've these few years been trying to bland out the game a bit, nerfing or reducing certain that you felt were "abusive" or "annoying" mechanics while trying to pool more and more heroes towards a center. This has also in general been happening even before that by making it easier for supports and junglers, and again it happened. Less specialization basically and more of a "same same" around which you can micro-balance things.

It's a very bland approach imo. 😛


edit: Even the reasoning is this: 
The main goal of the changes to the "new" Forests of Caldavar map is to make the viability of each laning setup choice to be more on par with one another, while retaining their own unique benefits and disadvantages."

"Everything should be similiar."..seems to be the mantra and what ever you pick you should have more oppurtunity to play the game anywhere (any lane/role) the way you want to. Even less consideration to be given on which side you're on. 

Tbh I found it kinda interesting (and certainly a result of the nature of the map being community made) that hellbourne and legion had different strengths and weaknesses in terms of location and map while still being overall balanced. That has been steadily eroded.

Edited by Ondis
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4 hours ago, Ondis said:

@EU 

 

Why should heroes be perfectly balanced to each other? What I mean is that there may be heroes few players play really well but others can't play i.e. skill ceilings may be different. 

In other cases certain heroes may only be good in certain compositions? 

Or rather balancing itself is semantics.

What I mean is that rather than thinking about concepts and cool mechanics or combo potentials you've these few years been trying to bland out the game a bit, nerfing or reducing certain that you felt were "abusive" or "annoying" mechanics while trying to pool more and more heroes towards a center. This has also in general been happening even before that by making it easier for supports and junglers, and again it happened. Less specialization basically and more of a "same same" around which you can micro-balance things.

It's a very bland approach imo. 😛


edit: Even the reasoning is this: 
The main goal of the changes to the "new" Forests of Caldavar map is to make the viability of each laning setup choice to be more on par with one another, while retaining their own unique benefits and disadvantages."

"Everything should be similiar."..seems to be the mantra and what ever you pick you should have more oppurtunity to play the game anywhere (any lane/role) the way you want to. Even less consideration to be given on which side you're on. 

Tbh I found it kinda interesting (and certainly a result of the nature of the map being community made) that hellbourne and legion had different strengths and weaknesses in terms of location and map while still being overall balanced. That has been steadily eroded.

Your post has quite a few premises & is largely an overarching game design question, so it's tough to fully answer your question.  I'll try my best to explain & break it down, but the main issue stems from the overall complexity regarding the general game design for HoN specifically & how general design philosophies being subjective is the real answer here.

 

I would like to start out by saying that the way you represent the design philosophy of HoN for the past few years is inaccurate & you framed it in a way where you made numerous assumptions about it. So in a way, you're only partially correct, but you miss the other half of the story regarding design philosophy. Missing that other half paints a negative light on HoN & makes what you say sound worse than how HoN actually is right now in terms of practical, real usage & play.

 

Quote

Why should heroes be perfectly balanced to each other? What I mean is that there may be heroes few players play really well but others can't play i.e. skill ceilings may be different. 

Heroes aren't actually meant to be perfectly balanced against each other. If they were, we'd have 50% win rates on every single hero. Your premise in this question is flawed and/or misrepresented to begin with. The question you meant to ask is "why should we reach to obtain as close to this goal as possible", because that is what actual balance ultimately tries to obtain. The reasoning is pretty simple & it's so that every hero has a more or less fair chance of winning no matter which you pick. It is important to note that this perspective is only applicable when viewing each of those heroes in a vacuum.

 

Skill ceilings vs. skill floors is also a very real thing. From a pure design standpoint, one can argue that a hero with a high skill ceiling should outperform ones with a lower skill ceiling. That is still true today (see: heroes that require micro like Ophelia or Gemini, heroes who require enough mechanical skill to excel like Silhouette). The problem comes from how much more badly said hero with a higher skill ceiling can perform vs. a hero with a lower one & whether that level of outperforming based on player skill input is healthy or not. That is ultimately subjective & is defined on a case-by-case level.

A good example was old Nitro - assuming you hit all accurate shots and have top notch spacing skill, the hero is pretty untouchable if played properly unless you devote 1-2 blink-CC/nukers on her. Old Nitro was also a hero that can abuse fog where no other hero can & also doesn't lose space when attacking compared to other heroes. Those 2 mechanics coupled together were considered too strong in terms of balance & design. Not only that, but old Nitro's damage output is entirely dependent on landing her old Ballistic shots. That mechanic in particular is way more lag dependent than other mechanics due to the dependency on the player's accuracy, and the old ultimate (H.E.A.T. Rounds) was so difficult to balance. As a result, Nitro ended up being way too good and frustrating to deal with, or way too weak. The other problem is the player base playing this hero - old Nitro was actually fairly simple to play in terms of landing her shots, yet for some reason a large portion of the player base can't seem to do it (likely due to the lowered overall skill of the player base, but also partially due to a player's internet connection with respect to the server). All of these factors are a prime example of why Nitro was considered a badly designed hero, in addition to having a relatively high skill ceiling. The rewards & performance levels are disproportionate to one another.

 

Quote

In other cases certain heroes may only be good in certain compositions? 

Yes, and having certain heroes who do that are fine - we can call them "specialists" in this post. The design question to ask here is how good specialists should be at max performance (with a team that is synergized with said specialty), how good the specialist is on average, and how good the specialist is in a disadvantageous situation. Actually, apply this concept to all heroes.

 

The next question comes from whether counters can be realistically obtained & applied, and at what timepoints of the game & conditions (e.g. are there items you can buy in the game that would help? How much would they help?). Also, how much would you have to change your team composition if you have the opportunity to counterpick (e.g. last-hero counterpick vs. in the middle of drafting, vs. only after the first few hero picks)? In other words, how easy & realistic is it to adapt to the opposing specialist?

 

This premise you've presented is another loaded question, there are so many factors to consider & the premise works as a generic, vague premise. Nobody can answer that in full unless you go through literally every single hero in HoN & compare it with every other single hero in HoN and come up with a variety of team combinations.

 

Quote

Or rather balancing itself is semantics.

What I mean is that rather than thinking about concepts and cool mechanics or combo potentials you've these few years been trying to bland out the game a bit, nerfing or reducing certain that you felt were "abusive" or "annoying" mechanics while trying to pool more and more heroes towards a center. This has also in general been happening even before that by making it easier for supports and junglers, and again it happened. Less specialization basically and more of a "same same" around which you can micro-balance things.

It's a very bland approach imo. 😛

I believe I answered this question sufficiently with my old Nitro example. Yes, admittedly it is subjective for every single case, but it also truly is a case-by-case basis in terms of assessing what is considered an unhealthy play pattern & what is not. Many factors are stemmed from this, such as the available options for counterplay, its realistic performance measured against the game's baseline in terms of high/average/low performance. I've said all that before.

 

I would also like to say that "easy" is probably a pessimistic point of view to address it as in terms of playing supports & junglers. Yes you can say that it's true, but you also have to keep in mind the "fun" part of game philosophy, as well as what a support was defined in the past vs. how they perform now.

A support in the past barely got any core items completed because of low gold income & resource min/maxing. Originally, the game wasn't meant to be played that way & wasn't balanced with respect to the metas. But as metas change, the areas in which balance & design changes affect must also be directed appropriately. A support having no gold sure was considered "fun" for a small subset of players because they are prideful about the skill required to perform well with minimal items - but for the majority of players, this was no fun at all. "Fun" or no "fun" factor aside, a support should be able to pick up certain items to prevent them from being absolutely steamrolled by the opposing team if they have a lead & to at least have a chance to adapt to the game with a core item or 2 other than just with their base kit.

With regards to junglers, sure it *may* have been made too easy in 4.8.5. The intention was to put laning combinations on a more similar footing in terms of viability - it's weighing those pros & cons with respect to one another that matters here, because those are still unique to each team lane setup (i.e. 2-1-2 and 2-1-1-Jungle have unique strengths and weaknesses). Changes may be made depending on how the meta develops, as balance/design is also a reactionary process.

 

You can argue that "fun = gold" is completely opinionated & that "majority vs. minority" or "balancing for top players vs. the average" are also completely opinionated. You can also argue that balancing according to the fundamentally lowered skill level of HoN's playerbase compared to how it was during its peak can be considered incorrect. Everything you can possibly ask in terms of generic design questions for HoN will tend to have conflicting answers to your personal or a general game designer's "rulebook".

The important thing to note is that HoN's design & balance changes are meant to be adaptable & somewhat changing over time, whether it's to the current meta, or trying to make different strategies have a more equal weighting with respect to one another. Which touches on your next point:

 

Quote

The main goal of the changes to the "new" Forests of Caldavar map is to make the viability of each laning setup choice to be more on par with one another, while retaining their own unique benefits and disadvantages."

"Everything should be similiar."..seems to be the mantra and what ever you pick you should have more oppurtunity to play the game anywhere (any lane/role) the way you want to. Even less consideration to be given on which side you're on. 

Tbh I found it kinda interesting (and certainly a result of the nature of the map being community made) that hellbourne and legion had different strengths and weaknesses in terms of location and map while still being overall balanced. That has been steadily eroded.

"Similar" or "More equal" does not actually mean "the same". To me, it looks like you've taken that quote in the patch notes and equated "similar = the exact same". "More similar" would be correct here. To put it bluntly, players complained that the performance on both sides were different enough such that they can recognized it was a problem. I don't think you read the "while retaining their own unique benefits and advantages" part of the post, so I'll just leave this part as a personal bias on your end.

 

Regarding the "everything should be similar" mantra - yes, but no. The game has a baseline value of nuke damage per level of a generic nuke spell (typically, 75/150/225/300) and a baseline of HP values over time, as well as potential early game items they can pick up for that (alongside considering other pros & cons of different item pickups). So yes, in this regard, some things have to be standardized (see: Shadowblade in Gargantuan Form & Strength mode on Essence Shift being too much of a powerhouse & being objectively the superior build path before recent adjustments), but they only get standardized to an extent.

 

Quote

"what ever you pick you should have more oppurtunity to play the game anywhere (any lane/role) the way you want to. Even less consideration to be given on which side you're on."

Do you have control over whether you're on Legion side or Hellbourne side? No, not in TMM. Even in BO3/BO5's in a competitive setting though, one team will get Legion more than Hellbourne by a factor of 1 game (if it goes to the last game of the set). This should be obvious enough why each side should be more similar - the advantages & disadvantages with each side are still unique enough.

 

With regards to playing any hero in any lane/role - you know for a fact that's not true. Go ahead and try a generic carry hero as a jungle or as a suicide, get owned, and come back and try saying that again.

What you meant is that "more & more heroes can go lane anywhere you want to" (with exceptions being jungle in most cases) - yes, this is true. However, if you go up against a hero that is primarily intended to be in a certain lane (e.g. Succubus as a mid lane), you're going to get owned (assuming factors like relatively equal skill). That's how it should be & that's how things work right now. So while you CAN put certain heroes anywhere, it's not often the best idea to do so.

With that said, there are heroes that go to different lanes with different lane compositions for different purposes (e.g. a kill lane/shutdown lane to go up against a farming lane with a carry), or dual laning mid to specifically counter a mid lane specialist (as far as laning specialists go). One of HoN's (and Dota2's) selling points is in fact the flexibility of laning options, and that is a design philosophy we are keeping. Depending on your team lineup & the opposing team's lineup, you can mix up your laning choices early game (particularly in competitive mode) to throw them off if you're anticipating their lane options to be something more or less specific, while yours is a little more ambiguous (but each hero & lane pairing combinations have different strengths & weaknesses). It is much more difficult (if not impossible) to do this in other games like League of Legends, where the 2-1-1-jungle is always the optimum strategy due to how their game is designed.

 

There are also numerous other factors that I haven't even touched on (regarding HoN's history & how some abilities/heroes are simply iconic to the game). Those can't simply be reworked, removed or changed.

 

========================

 

Overall, design philosophies are largely opinionated & there's no 1 right or wrong answer or approach. I do however, think that the way you've phrased your post is more on the pessimistic side of things & you don't grasp the uniqueness of HoN & why they are what they are. While I respect your opinion, the premises, questions & points of view should be less generic & more specific if you wanted to actually try & change HoN.

Edited by ElementUser
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