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ElementUser

4.8.5 Patch Notes - Pre-Release Discussion

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Midwar most important change: respawn time - exceptional bad idea. Why?

- how much chances to win has team which loses T1 statisticly,  before patch? 30%? Punishing this team is going to make 0%. Which is absurd.

- This kind of approach benefits early powerful skills heroes... and is taking chances for auto attack late heroes.

- Games will be about T1 than cc. 

 

After changing places for mele and range barracks nobody is trying to attack barracks. After that change never seen anyone who would go for mele barracks before core so more resist for barracks is bad idea, because nobody cares anymore. After patch nobody will even think about it... especially if core has lower self healing. 

Just hypothetical question. Cor's lower self healing and T1 T2 punishment for losing team... how about staffed madman... can he do it alone now?

Seems very good synergy between this two bad changes for mw to find a way to exploit especially if this will not prevent situation when winning team will just not go forward... because this is in players attitude and if they want troll they will troll which will be more easy now. 

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Was Valk overperforming ? When I see this while Maliken stays the same I wonder where the parameters come from.

 

Call of the Valkyrie
- Mana Cost increased from 80/90/100/110 to 80/100/120/140.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, liiva said:

Was Valk overperforming ? When I see this while Maliken stays the same I wonder where the parameters come from.

 

Call of the Valkyrie
- Mana Cost increased from 80/90/100/110 to 80/100/120/140.

She was picked quite a bit in HoN OMGTour Season 2's tournament, as well as in general high TMM games. Her performance is also consistently above average in all brackets.

 

Her Q costs way too little mana for a hero that can do a bit of everything. It was a buff when HoN's global power level was too high. Valkyrie can farm way too easily & giving back some of HoN's mana management back to her is a good move balance-wise.

Edited by ElementUser

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1 hour ago, VaYha said:

Midwar most important change: respawn time - exceptional bad idea. Why?

- how much chances to win has team which loses T1 statisticly,  before patch? 30%? Punishing this team is going to make 0%. Which is absurd.

- This kind of approach benefits early powerful skills heroes... and is taking chances for auto attack late heroes.

- Games will be about T1 than cc. 

 

After changing places for mele and range barracks nobody is trying to attack barracks. After that change never seen anyone who would go for mele barracks before core so more resist for barracks is bad idea, because nobody cares anymore. After patch nobody will even think about it... especially if core has lower self healing. 

Just hypothetical question. Cor's lower self healing and T1 T2 punishment for losing team... how about staffed madman... can he do it alone now?

Seems very good synergy between this two bad changes for mw to find a way to exploit especially if this will not prevent situation when winning team will just not go forward... because this is in players attitude and if they want troll they will troll which will be more easy now. 

We'll see how it plays out, I don't think anyone actually knows what will happen for sure.

 

You can ban Madman if it concerns you too much. That's what bans are for. He still can't backdoor well on his own with the current backdoor changes, just FYI.

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Posted (edited)

ElementUser thank You for responding. I would ask you about possibility of reverting midwar changes after patch experience. I really worry about that the game will be one sideded now. Taking any chances to paid off  T1 or T2 losing team is cruel. Best midwar games are when you almost kill core but enemy team is able to push your team back... because T2 or core requires strategy and coordination. Extended cooldown punishment for losing team will allow to snowball winning T1 team. 

Why? Because midwar is not about kills like caldavar... it is more about team hp vs team hp.  When I defend T2 or core I can sacrifice myself if this will open window for my team to get more kills or lower enemy team hp more than my own. This is chance to push them back. After this patch chances will be significantly lower. 

There is more... you want to give extra gold for wining T1 T2 team? This is madness of madness. Snowball for snowball. 

So... is it possible to revert changes after we experience this patch if it affect game with less equilibrium? 

Is it possible to revert positions of barracks? Now attacking bareacks have no sense and even lower leveled team attacks core.

Is it possible to check what was % of winings for teams which get T1 first before patch and compare this to winning % after patch? This ratio should clearly show if the change was good or bad. 

Off topic:

Considering dr repulsor changes...  After every dr repulsor's jump... will we lose target even if he jump really close to previous position? Losing locked target on him every time he jumps is frustrating. It doesn't work on any other hero like that. 

Edited by VaYha

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, VaYha said:

ElementUser thank You for responding. I would ask you about possibility of reverting midwar changes after patch experience. I really worry about that the game will be one sideded now. Taking any chances to paid off  T1 or T2 losing team is cruel. Best midwar games are when you almost kill core but enemy team is able to push your team back... because T2 or core requires strategy and coordination. Extended cooldown punishment for losing team will allow to snowball winning T1 team. 

Why? Because midwar is not about kills like caldavar... it is more about team hp vs team hp.  When I defend T2 or core I can sacrifice myself if this will open window for my team to get more kills or lower enemy team hp more than my own. This is chance to push them back. After this patch chances will be significantly lower. 

There is more... you want to give extra gold for wining T1 T2 team? This is madness of madness. Snowball for snowball. 

So... is it possible to revert changes after we experience this patch if it affect game with less equilibrium? 

Is it possible to revert positions of barracks? Now attacking bareacks have no sense and even lower leveled team attacks core.

Is it possible to check what was % of winings for teams which get T1 first before patch and compare this to winning % after patch? This ratio should clearly show if the change was good or bad. 

Off topic:

Considering dr repulsor changes...  After every dr repulsor's jump... will we lose target even if he jump really close to previous position? Losing locked target on him every time he jumps is frustrating. It doesn't work on any other hero like that. 

You... didn't even play the patch yet. Neither has any other player. It's not physically possible (unless you're in RCT, but i meant the vast majority of players). 

 

How pretentious and arrogant of you to boldly ask for a revert on something you haven't even tried yet. 

Edited by ElementUser
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Good Patch.

 

Please can we see some changes for Gold/Xp to remove the benefits of pubtraining from early? 

 

It's completely killing the flow of the game

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, `geminai said:

Good Patch.

 

Please can we see some changes for Gold/Xp to remove the benefits of pubtraining from early? 

 

It's completely killing the flow of the game

That is already in the game.

 

0tTBvs0.png

 

From here: https://hon.gamepedia.com/Experience

 

The numeric values are outdated as it's supposed to be 100/100/80/60/40% for 1/2/3/4/5 heroes within XP range, but the concept is already there.

 

There's only so much you can do before these rewards get hampered for legitimate XvY battles, where X & Y can be within 3-5, and only so much you can do without breaking balance between the reward that a solo/duo ganker gets vs. other forms of ganking, and only so much you can do before you break the relative reward-to-safety/effort ratios of ganking vs. farming.

 

For Gold - you don't need extra penalties because there already exists a mechanic where if you repeatedly keep on killing the same heroes, you get less gold from them because of the target's GPM being lower compared to the heroes that participated in the hero kill.

 

So everything you mentioned actually already exists.

Edited by ElementUser
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...3 seconds difference in the worst case for the respawn timer doesn't seem so bad... Let's try out and see how it goes.
To be honest, I don't think it'll matter much anyway. Maybe we're not playing the same midwars matches, but by the time T1 and T2 are down, I usually worry more about teammates AFKing or spamming the CC vote than the respawn timer. I consider myself very lucky when all I have to worry about is how to try to play correctly.

Still on the topic of midwars, I think two issues are kinda acknowledged by most players :

  1.  'toxic' heroes picked 24/7 (too much viability compared to others)
  2.  lack of player commitment (afk, cc spam after one bad move, cat on fire...you name it)

The first one has been addressed for some time quite nicely with the extra bans. Blind and overlapping bans are still a problem though.
The second one could be adressed with the AFK timer changes. I'm really curious to see if it works. I'm lucky enough to not have much computer/internet problems so... ofc it's welcome !

 

Quote

Earliest concede time availability reduced from 10 minutes to 5 minutes.


But then there's the 5 minutes CC vote in the patch note 😐. As a reminder, It takes around 3 minutes average to find a match, 2 minutes to load and pick heroes. I'm afraid this change will lead to even less commitment, and ultimately in even more wasted time for everyone. Some matches are lost at picking phase, can't deny that. But is it such a common occurence ? Shouldn't players be willing to play a bit when they launch this game ? Even a midwars match ?

And finally

Quote

Matchmaking constraints for Mid Wars are slightly less relaxed, which should result in increasing the chances of getting a more enjoyable match.

Very good move, especially for solo queue players. I'm not sure it'll be enough to solve the abnormally high unfairness of some matches because of mismatched groups though.
There was a proposal in the old forums about alleviating the frustration of such matches, and I believe it would fare well along this change: rework the MMR gain/loss formula to take groups and the number of people in the group into account. Maybe if you can't always provide fair matches, you should try to provide slightly more fair results ?

Anyway, good patch !
... Shadowblade ❤️

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Posted (edited)

Hey EU I have a question about the new evasion mechanic on Nitro's E, does the 50% evasion only apply to the units within the 300 range, or does she gain 50% evasion against all units whilst an enemy is within 300 range? Also when it says "enemy", does that mean just heroes or do creeps count too?

 

Thanks.

Edited by SpringBoob

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, SpringBoob said:

Hey EU I have a question about the new evasion mechanic on Nitro's E, does the 50% evasion only apply to the units within the 300 range, or does she gain 50% evasion against all units whilst an enemy is within 300 range? Also when it says "enemy", does that mean just heroes or do creeps count too?

 

Thanks.

As long as 1 enemy is within that range, she'll get evasion

 

If it's not specified, it means all enemy units

Edited by ElementUser

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No chance on Kane SOTM ?

Frist time i see a double-edge effect on 4k2 gold item that require a kill. Even in Dota 2, there no such thing

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, ElementUser said:

You... didn't even play the patch yet. Neither has any other player. It's not physically possible (unless you're in RCT, but i meant the vast majority of players). 

 

How pretentious and arrogant of you to boldly ask for a revert on something you haven't even tried 

Pretentious? Arrogant? 

I asked about POSSIBILITY of reverting if this go wrong. You don't need to be a genius to figure out what will happen if you punish losing towers team. No chance to counter attack. 100% gg cc.

I asked because what I've noticed reverting changes are hard to do even if they are a "must" in some cases. This is the honest answer. Believe me. I care about midwar as much as possible... so my intentions are like yours. 

 

Edited by VaYha

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I have a doubt.  Would Moraxus become very strong if his (q) ability was able to cast as a panda and chipped can cast his (q)?

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5 min cc on midwar is not so bad. After T1 fall probability of winning is decreased so there will be no point to play any longer. I hope I'm wrong. 

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On 7/25/2020 at 9:08 PM, VaYha said:

Midwar most important change: respawn time - exceptional bad idea. Why?- how much chances to win has team which loses T1 statisticly,  before patch? 30%?

Probably higher but it's irrelevant.  Some teams play well enough to  deserve a comeback but others don't.

Fighting near your base gives you a huge unwarranted advantage.  It's currently actually beneficial to lose T1 a lot of the time.
To avoid playing to that advantage, opposing teams have had to sit around doing nothing.

All that's really relevant is whether teams are penalised for attacking T2.

This change is the one I'm most excited about. In addition to making games shorter, it boosts pushing heroes who are currently weak.

Quote

- This kind of approach benefits early powerful skills heroes... and is taking chances for auto attack late heroes.

True and that's not a bad thing.  Carries are too strong in Midwars.

Quote

After changing places for mele and range barracks nobody is trying to attack barracks. After that change never seen anyone who would go for mele barracks before core so more resist for barracks is bad idea, because nobody cares anymore. After patch nobody will even think about it... especially if core has lower self healing. 

There's little point attacking barracks as supercreeps aren't very strong vs lategame Midwars teams.  I'd suggest doubling their health.

I'd also request T1 & T2 receive backdoor protection.

The other change that is key is dropping 4/5 concede to 15 mins from 25(?) mins.  It's one I almost suggested.

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