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Sorais

Goldenveil

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Goldenveil is pretty silly:

- His E effectively gives him permanent +10 health regen, since most of the time he'll be invisible to the enemy team. In turn that means he makes use of Blood Chalice like no other hero.
- His Q actually does more damage than Swiftblade spin if he hits all of it.
- His ability to scout is very strong. The cooldown on his W is three seconds, which lets him jump across the map very quickly, usually invisibly too. Plus since he can see everything he can also use the newly-nerfed rev wards easily (and mana won't be an issue because of Chalice above).

Goldenveil has two downsides:

- He's countered by tree destruction. Problem with this is that some heroes are just much more effective at destroying trees than others, which makes Goldenveil perform in very polarized fashion. Opponent has Klanx / Ra etc, he's suddenly much worse. Opponent has Glacius / Sand Wraith etc, he's extremely annoying if not broken especially since he can use his W even if he's been spotted. There is currently one item in the game that destroys trees en masse (Arcane Bomb), which helps, but only sort of, because it's not a useful otherwise. Compare an item like Tablet - that item is a useful pickup even if it didn't incidentally counter melee heroes in general.
- The other downside is that he's crappy in teamfights. This is partly negated by the fact that he's superb at ganking, which means that he's either great or terrible with no middle ground - which is not a good place to be.

Goldenveil is devastatingly effective in the Thai playstyle and it's not surprising that he's 54% win rate. That said, DR is at 59% win rate and he's apparently not a problem, so yeah.

Hero needs some changes - make him less effective at ganking, make it less necessary for opponents to get tree destruction (or increase the power of Arcane Bomb I suppose, but that item also has problems since it's extremely effective against some heroes), and make him more useful in teamfights.

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Posted (edited)

Goldenveil was already nerfed multiple times & his success is strongly correlated with the W's Plunge subability's airtime. Microadjustments were made in multiple patches until his performance was at the desired point in NAEU.

 

I also wanted to note that all stats you see in SEA are inaccurate as they pertain to Casual Mode, not Normal Mode.

Edited by ElementUser

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9 hours ago, Sorais said:

Goldenveil is pretty silly:

- His E effectively gives him permanent +10 health regen, since most of the time he'll be invisible to the enemy team. In turn that means he makes use of Blood Chalice like no other hero.
- His Q actually does more damage than Swiftblade spin if he hits all of it.
- His ability to scout is very strong. The cooldown on his W is three seconds, which lets him jump across the map very quickly, usually invisibly too. Plus since he can see everything he can also use the newly-nerfed rev wards easily (and mana won't be an issue because of Chalice above).

A few very quick points to refute:

He needs to be outside of range of a lot of the lane creeps and not have vision to be gaining this health regeneration, which means during laning he is not in experience range or generally not in Plunge range at the very minimum. If he isn't threatening with Plunge, he isn't really accomplishing anything. To say that he abuses Blood Chalice is a little silly, as there are many heroes that can utilize it far better (Succubus for one). It still takes time, and most importantly, early ranks from his other skills which can very well be the difference between a secured kill and not.

His Q only hits 1 target at a time when he is Dagger Dancing; unlike Swiftblade who hits everything around himself (while granting magic immunity). In addition he needs to be right up close and personal to get real value out of the spell if the hero runs toward a wave or has minions of their own.

Yes his ability to scout is strong but many heroes have the ability to scout in different ways, I actually appreciate the unique approach here that just isn't the bog-standard invisibility to scout. The nerfed Revelation wards hardly change anything from the way it was before, besides like you said Arcane Bomb does wonders. Also it should be noted he only retains his invisibility if he only jumps >300 units, otherwise he is extremely telepgraphed.

The Plunge nerfs were enough, the speed to hit the ground means he needs to either rely on great prediction, a setup, or his Greedgutter to confirm a stun and Dagger Dance.

I really don't think he is problematic.

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Posted (edited)

He is fine.

Compare to fayde. They both good in solo gank, scout, survival. while fayde is fine with only Portal Key. Gv require more item to archive his goal, and he cant fight without a tree nearby, espeacially when his ultimate is on cooldown.
The curren broken in 4.8.1 is Balphagore with his staff of the master

Edited by w3_starboy

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On 7/16/2020 at 9:38 AM, Hubaris said:

A few very quick points to refute:

He needs to be outside of range of a lot of the lane creeps and not have vision to be gaining this health regeneration, which means during laning he is not in experience range or generally not in Plunge range at the very minimum. If he isn't threatening with Plunge, he isn't really accomplishing anything. To say that he abuses Blood Chalice is a little silly, as there are many heroes that can utilize it far better (Succubus for one). It still takes time, and most importantly, early ranks from his other skills which can very well be the difference between a secured kill and not.

His Q only hits 1 target at a time when he is Dagger Dancing; unlike Swiftblade who hits everything around himself (while granting magic immunity). In addition he needs to be right up close and personal to get real value out of the spell if the hero runs toward a wave or has minions of their own.

Yes his ability to scout is strong but many heroes have the ability to scout in different ways, I actually appreciate the unique approach here that just isn't the bog-standard invisibility to scout. The nerfed Revelation wards hardly change anything from the way it was before, besides like you said Arcane Bomb does wonders. Also it should be noted he only retains his invisibility if he only jumps >300 units, otherwise he is extremely telepgraphed.

The Plunge nerfs were enough, the speed to hit the ground means he needs to either rely on great prediction, a setup, or his Greedgutter to confirm a stun and Dagger Dance.

I really don't think he is problematic.

Do you actually have experience with the hero? You can easily be in experience range and still get the health regeneration, you just need to be out of vision which is easily possible if you are behind the tree line. Plunge works fine as well since you are invisible.

Goldenveil utilizes Blood Chalice better than Succubus. That's because after Succubus uses Chalice she needs to use the mana to regain her health, Goldenveil doesn't. Seriously, have you tried it? Because it's hard to believe you would not realize this if you have.

It's true Goldenveil's Q damage can be split among multiple targets, but still: if it hits a single target, it's 540 damage. Even if substantially reduced, 540 damage is well above the norm for a nuke. Remember that if he dropped from Perch he also does damage in an AoE, so it's not that likely that creeps will tank the damage for you.

Also you can see that Goldenveil jumped, you can't see where he jumped to, not unlike Magebane/Hag W (and even then you can't tell Goldenveil is nearby if you didn't have vision of Goldenveil in the first place).

I can't tell if you have experience with the hero.

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Posted (edited)

Pharaoh's Hellfire does nearly 1000 damage if you stay within range. Torturer Impalement does 1200 or more IIRC. These, much like Dagger Dance, are unreliable damage. I would almost always take 360 damage and a reliable stun than 560 spread unreliably, not to mention many spells also have additional effects whereas Dagger Dance is simply just damage... Unreliable damage. It's not AoE, it's over time, and it requires you to get up close and personal.

560 situational damage isn't that high when he only has 3 active abilities, one of which requires positioning and trees.

Plunge takes 0.75 seconds (or was it 0.85 now) to hit the ground and has a 200 radius? A hero who isn't slowed can actually react and walk out of it's radius safely at 300 move speed (255 units in 0.85s). The skill is hugely unreliable but does reward hard reads on the enemy. This is something I like and think is fine.

You can predict where Goldenveil is jumping by the telegraphed animation on his jump and how it arcs.

I don't appreciate you using experience as a cudgel for balance discussion, but if you need to know since returning I've only been playing mostly newer heroes, with Goldenveil being one of them. So yes I know, but I also know that there are times I am kicking myself for playing a very situational hero who gets completely shutdown by move speed, communication and tree destruction when I could be YOLOing people with Nomad or EW or plenty of other reliable heroes. 

Edited by Hubaris
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I need to know something, Newerth. The way we used to be together... I... I don't mean lately, but before... It was real, wasn't it?

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Posted (edited)

There's a reason why high level players considered Goldenveil to be underpowered overall (and this is fine because of his unusual play pattern & the unusual frustrations when he's playing as a suicide lane hero), and the truth is that Goldenveil is an all-in type of hero who has to capitalize on his early game lead with his early game strengths. If he doesn't, the only other thing he can do is hope that his team still gets frags & give them bonus gold with his ultimate to boost his team's advantage.

 

I've mentioned this before as well: Goldenveil's performance is strongly correlated with how reliably he can land his Plunge ability. The impact delay is deliberately fine-tuned to a point where it's not too reliable & allows enemies a fair chance to juke & outplay the trajectory, while still making it reliable enough for Goldenveil's player. Goldenveil is precisely where he's intended to be in terms of performance stats.

Edited by ElementUser

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how does goldenveil's "rustle sound" work when he is hidden near you? Sometimes i do hear that sound, so i realize he is near... but sometimes i don't!!

Is that a bug or is there something i'm missing?

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2 hours ago, Mr`Cactus said:

how does goldenveil's "rustle sound" work when he is hidden near you? Sometimes i do hear that sound, so i realize he is near... but sometimes i don't!!

Is that a bug or is there something i'm missing?

From what i experience. You hear his sound when he jump to a tree near you around 800 range or you have sight of him when he jump. 800 range is around flint attack ranged so sometimes you wont hear his rustle sound

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Posted (edited)

I re-evaluated his performance in NAEU & he's getting 1 more frame on his Plunge air time.

 

Thanks for bringing Goldenveil to my attention. We can talk again in 4.8.6 if that's not enough & add 1 more frame if it comes to it 🙂

Edited by ElementUser

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