I have asked here some time ago about how to perform the Salagmites/chuck combo to do double damage 100% of the time. Got no hard proof answer so I start digging a little into the source codes for the skills.
Here the results of that:
See ElementUser's post here for mathematical backup:
Last edited by TreeHorse; 04-12-2010 at 05:05 PM.
Intresting, thanks. The tooltip suggests the other way around but I've always thought stun+chuck gave more damage. Thanks for proving ^^!
Formerly ExposedPudding/Mr Makuto || Savage 1 BETA Player - Savage 2 ALPHA + BETA tester
Knew it but my mates didn't believe... this'll show em ^^
gj with testing
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Yeah, I was not sure myself, but I got tired of people shouting at me during games to do it the other way around. (and that no matter what order I was using ) )
I'm pretty sure 1000 people could have told you this without wasting your time.. it has always been and will always be - stun chuck..
if you just use the search you could of found a thread about this already with the same results.
yep as always...stun+chuck
Originally Posted by cybertag
I agree, we should have an EM tourny. I mean, why not? The world has special Olympics... it's kind of the same thing.
Well, I really enjoyed making it, so no waste of time at all.
I had a thread witch was helpful for a start, but opinions were 75% - 25%, no numbers, no nothing, no one could point me to a previous post. I have searched the forums for this... nothing, so if you found one already, can you please post it here to have a comparison?
I went into it a bit, and tested at 1/10th speed, the last time someone made a thread. You have good proof, though. Weirdly I could only get a 50 hp difference between the 2 methods, not 150.
Btw, if you press A and tap the ground immediately after Chucking, Pebbles will cancel that "hands in the air" animation into an attack. Your attack should cool off in time for you to get another one soon after they land. Most pebbles don't cancel into an attack during the combo, so they only get 1 autoattack instead of 2 before the victim starts to run.
No, dude. I tested at host_timescale 0.1. That's 1 frame every half second. I got 50 damage more the stun->chuck way, every time. (Because stun has a cast time, it doesn't come out immediately when you chuck, so some chuck time is wasted and the last ripple of stun doesn't get the full damage boost)
I suggest you test it yourself if you want to prove you can do max damage with either sequence.
If you Chuck first, Chuck state will expire on the 3'rd Stalagmite wave at best and that is 75 less damage (or like [LN]light_rain pointed out ~50 dmg after magic reduction).
It's true that you'll get a bit less damage with Chuck first, however, the entire stun will last a little bit longer due to using Stalagmites second. Just check what you need for the given situation, its versatile.
Its still wrong. I mean, yes of course stun than chuck deals no dmg but left enemy hero stunned after the combo for much less time than done otherwise. Usually at least one extra attack can be performed when chucking first. If your auto attack can exceed those 100-150 dmg which will happen almost always, reconsider it. Well you can stop this hand in air animation after stun/throw to quicken an auto attack thou.
Its all about how much dmg actually can you pull out ingame, in such comparison as presented in video you would always prefer to deal 400dmg than deal 380 dmg and stun for 10 sec.
He is just right, no offence. ( the thread maker )
WE ARE THA SNIPAZ
wait, doesn't ur ulti improve chuck and stun. if your gonna test shouldnt u perform it with level 16s and not 8s
Wait, did you actually red what his ulti does?
Do you think it will influence the order in witch you should perform the skills in anyway? Or the damage difference between the two?
There's one thing you're not considering, and that's the auto attacks in between stag/chuck.
I haven't tested it, but the reason why I use toss FIRST and stalagmite SECOND is because I can get more auto attacks in (i think)
I can get 3 auto attacks during my combo, that's quite a substantial amount with pebbles ult.
I go toss->auto attack once->stalagmite->auto attack, auto attack. I'm BARELY able to get my 3rd auto attack in due to the long lasting stun.
I haven't tested the other way around but I presume it would go like this.
Stalagmite->auto attack->Chuck->auto attack->Enemy runs/blinks away (or stuns you), no 3rd auto attack.
I always used chuck first so I can't speak from experience if you're able to get a 3rd auto attack in when using stalagmite first.
Last edited by woodyfly1; 04-06-2010 at 06:30 AM.
I found in testing I could get
Stun-cancel-chuck-cancel-attack, wait, attack at the end of the stun, be in range to attack again unless they have a 0frame blink or something.
Your way is chuck-attack, stalagmite-attack, attack? seems like you lose a lot of stalagmite bonus damage that way, since you have to wait for your attack point AND your stalag cast point, and that's two cancels to nail instead of one. It would depend on your execution, your autoattack damage and speed, their armour, etc. I could see lategame when you're using Demonic breastplate vs. a guy with Headdress, wanting to string out the disable so you can edge in one more attack. Maybe. Would have to math/test it and it's so situational I'm really not inclined to put that much time into it.
@tommer I tested at all levels of ult. stun-> chuck dealt more magic damage regardless of ult level.