Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread. Thread: Mahnd [Newb-friendly Int Support]

View Poll Results: How cool is this hero?

Voters
103. You may not vote on this poll
  • Aweshum! :]

    77 74.76%
  • Sweet, but needs some tweaking.

    18 17.48%
  • Eh, I don't really like it. :[ (Please post why!)

    8 7.77%
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  1. #21
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    rofl. cute. definitely can see a noob-only game w/ dupe heroes on and mahds running wild all over.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Uee View Post
    Oh I get the ult now. D: Nvm it's good, forget my suggestions. :P
    hehe.
    Btw, sorry if it felt as though I was belittling your post. I just wanted to shed some light on his ult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadi View Post
    rofl. cute. definitely can see a noob-only game w/ dupe heroes on and mahds running wild all over.
    Yay, thank you. :]
    I wanted to make the most useful newb hero possible. Hopefully it will encourage a more accepting community.
    I tried to design the skills around common sense so that a new player doesn't have to think too much about synergizing and what order to use his spells. Although, advanced players should be able to find more clever and sneaky ways to use them.

    I'm going to start a little competition soon to try and gather some hype.
    I <3 Efel.

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  3. #23
    We need more people to vote yes. S2 needs to implement this guy or I shallt not play HoN >;[
    Quote Originally Posted by uhhhahhhohah View Post
    perhaps you'd like to explain your pro-apartheid stance to everyone
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    It has no Vuvuzalas.

  4. #24
    Started a super jazzy competition!

    Fun for everyone.

    Plus a chance to get a neato hero sheet.
    And whats that...FREE SIGS? waoaoaoaoao. =} :P
    I <3 Efel.

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  5. #25
    Giving People the Finger: A Guide to Mahnd

    You might look at Mahnd and think "Wow, really? A kirby-type puff with a floating hand? What a wussy hero!" You, my friend, would be wrong. Just because Mahnd doesn't have the raw killing power of a carry or the disable potential of someone like Behemoth doesn't make him a wuss - in fact, played properly, Mahnd can be instrumental in getting early kills and in winning those teamfights that will eventually win your team the game.

    General Skill Build
    1 - Flick
    2 - Poke
    3 - Poke
    4 - Flick
    5 - Poke
    6 - Assist
    7 - Poke
    8 - Flick
    9 - Flick
    10 - Floating Doom
    11 - Assist
    12-14 - Floating Doom
    15 - Stats
    16 - Assist
    17-25 - Stats

    Why Flick before his snare, you ask? So that you can draw people into your tower range, of course! You should NOT be soloing on Mahnd - that's a complete waste of potential. Instead, try to lane with someone with a stun or a slow - flick the enemy towards your tower and let the disabler lock them down for a few seconds while you and the tower score some free hits. Once you have a level or two in Poke, you can slow your opponents once they're in tower range, getting even more free hits.

    Best heroes to lane with:
    1. Behemoth
    - There's just nobody better than this guy. Flick them towards your tower and laugh as he fissures them in. Should be a very easy kill if you have a moderately skilled Behe in your lane early game. Keep their carries down by either drawing them into this combo or forcing them to play way back due to the constant threat you pose with him by your side.

    2. Other Stunners
    - Again, Flick them to the tower and stun them, you just won't have the added bonus of the giant impassable wall keeping them close after the stun is over. You can still deal major damage to many heroes by letting the tower get those 4-5 free attacks thanks to your ability to move heroes around.

    3. Devourer
    - Trying to land a hook but always being blocked by creeps? No more worries with Mahnd at your side! Flick the enemy out from behind his creeps (this will require good timing on your part and good aim/reflexes on the part of your Devourer, but it's by no means impossible) and pull them in with the hook. You can even use Flick to get them into range of a Devourer they can't even see! While they're being eaten/Decayed, Poke 'em a few times - your buddy will appreciate the extra slow to keep them in range of Decay and his autoattacks. Do this a few times and watch as his strength shoots up from all of the kills you're netting him!

    4. Swiftblade
    - Not as easy as stunning into a spin, but a well-timed Flick combined with a properly positioned Blade Frenzy can be just as devastating as the classic Elec/Pollywog + Swiftblade level 1 gang-bang. Force their heroes to play back or net your Swiftblade some early kills, possibly propelling you to an early victory by allowing him to gain power early game that he would otherwise need to obtain by farming creeps.

    Items:

    Early Game -

    2x Fortified Bracelet (1x if you're not getting hit too hard)
    HP is always a solid choice, especially on a support hero. Make sure you've got enough health to take the hits you're likely to take when they notice you going in for the Flick initiation.

    Marchers
    You need some sort of speed boost or you'll never be able to get off Poke/Flick. These will do for now.

    Mid-game -

    Totem of Kuldra
    Now instead of simply Flick/Poke stacking, you can Flick --> Hex --> Poke stack, keeping your enemies in place long enough for the rest of your team to get set up and also preventing them from casting any stuns/silences to keep Poke off of them.

    Post Haste
    Yes, you heard right. Enhanced Marchers are simply not necessary for you. You don't need chasing power - once you get the first Poke off, you can keep up. Besides which, you can cast at four times your normal range so long as one of your allies is chasing them down. The other benefits of Enhanced Marchers simply don't outweigh the ability to move yourself around the map with the speed Post Haste gets you - you need to be able to get to every team fight, since that's where you really shine.

    Optional: Helm of the Black Legion
    Are you getting rocked by physical damage? Consider one of these. Also consider, however, that you're unlikely to get many hero kills (if any at all), and this might be a big chunk of money that could go towards your Totem of Kuldra. However, it's better that you survive and not have your Totem than it is for you to die and be of no help to your team.

    Late Game -

    Shrunken Head
    At some point people are going to realize that getting rid of you before you can get those nifty Flicks and Pokes off is preferable to being shoved around the map like a red-headed stepchild - and they'll start focusing nukes on you. Pop this before initiating to prevent an untimely death.

    Daemonic Breastplate
    Help your team kill the people you pull in even faster while also giving yourself increased survivability.

    Hellflower
    Now you have a push, a slow, a hex, AND a silence/damage amp - what more could an amazing supporter want?

    Luxury -

    Frostfield Plate
    Got everything else and the game's still not over? Add an AoE slow to your repertoire while further increasing your survivability.

    Frostwolf's Skull
    See above. More slow+hp == good.



    Items to avoid:

    Steamboots/Enhanced Marchers
    You simply don't need the bonuses either of these offer you nearly as much as you need the infinite TPs offered by Post Haste. Your job is to be there for every team fight - make sure you do that job as efficiently as possible, which makes Post Haste your only choice.

    Assassin's Shroud
    You may look at this as a godsend in terms of positioning, but there are two major problems with it: One, it's expensive as hell for a hero for whom the damage bonus is a non-factor. Two, it's easily shut down by wards and dust. A purchase of this item is just foolish.

    Portal Key
    Yes, most initiatiors are fantastic with this item, but they also need to be much closer than Mahnd does. With Assist, you can use Flick from a wonderfully long range - by the time you could possibly farm the gold for a Key, you'll have Assist and likely have noticed that a Key will do you no good.

    Any items designed to get you kills (Codex, weapons, etc.)
    You are NOT a killer. You're a supporter, and a fantastic one at that. Do your job, don't try to steal somebody else's.



    Heroes to watch out for:

    Devourer -
    A well placed hook can set you up for some major hurt. Your abilities rely on you having a teammate to back you up; when he pulls you into the woods, he will likely be able to bring you down before your teammate can save you. An important note, however: if you're having trouble with Devourer, skill up Floating Doom as quickly as possible. Shutting down his regen will often lead to him having much less health when he kills you (if he still can), at least allowing your team a decent shot at killing him. If you do find yourself in a lane with him, ditch some points in Flick/Poke (still get the first point in each at levels 1 and 2) and max Floating Doom ASAP.

    Nukers
    You have low HP and no real escape mechanism. Make sure you have adequate HP regen items early and a teammate who can hopefully either stun or slow, then try your best to stay out of nuke range while still remaining useful. Later in the game you should pick up a Shrunken Head anyways, but early on these guys can spell trouble.

    Stunners
    See above. Try to stay out of stun range and make sure your teammate is ready to bail you out of trouble. Again, once you have Shrunken Head this becomes a non-issue, but that's a late game thing.



    General play guide:
    Early on, lane with a stunner if possible and Flick people into the tower, then stun. Bottom lane is best on Legion side, top for Hellbourne. If you're playing on a map besides Caldavar... well, you'll have to just try to draw their creeps into your tower more. Force creep aggro by autoattacking their hero and pull the wave closer to your tower. Their hero will either have to stay out of EXP range or risk the flick/stun combo when they try to last hit.

    Once you have Assist, you become a fantastic ganker. If your allies need a hand in any lane (and you're confident your lane partner won't get blown up the second you leave and the threat of Flick is gone) move towards them, drop Assist, then use Flick to bring the enemy heroes into murdering range. Even if they don't die, you'll force them to play conservatively and maybe even go back and heal. Forcing them out of lane is a great thing and allows your allies some breathing room.

    Late game, you are the king of initiation. Unlike Behe or Tempest, you don't need to be in the midst of their team to get off your spells. Sure, you won't catch their whole team with a nasty disable - but you can sure as heck pick off their initiator or their carry with a well-aimed Flick/Totem/Poke/your team beats their face in combo. Once that's done, their team will likely do one of two things:

    1. Haphazardly enter the fight without much coordination and slowly die.

    OR

    2. Retreat towards the base, having lost the battle before it began.

    If they go with option one, kill them off and push. If they choose option two, pick off any stragglers and push. Win-win, and it's all thanks to you and your wonderful ability to FORCE them into a fight. Continue to do this until you've won the game.

    The main problem you'll run into while playing Mahnd is the same problem any HoN player has run into time and time again - having a team that simply isn't good. Of course it happens - we were all newbs once, and everyone has to learn. In this situation, simply play to have fun! Try something new. You won't be able to carry with Mahnd (unless the enemy team is really, really bad and you steal a lot of early kills), but you may find something new that helps you play him even more effectively.

    Good luck, and enjoy giving your opponents the finger!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghidoran View Post
    "A competitive team did it" does not mean it is a good idea.

  6. #26
    I love it. =D

    I really enjoy'd reading you're little image template thingy.

    /thumbs up!

  7. #27
    Just wondering, but can flick be used on yourself as a pseudo-escape?

  8. #28
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    I voted "Eh, I don't really like it. :[ (Please post why!)" for the sheer fact of Mahnd's visual style. I really don't think the way he looks would really "fit in" with the other characters of HoN. I invision this more to be something like a Nintendo character, actually.

    If Mahnd was completely redesigned graphically, maybe then it could be a nice addition. Great job on the presentation though!

  9. #29
    You voted you don't like a hero because you didn't like his appearance?

    That is undoubtedly the most pathetic thing I've ever read on this forum.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blarfles View Post
    You voted you don't like a hero because you didn't like his appearance?
    Well, Mahnd's appearance has a lot to do with his playstyle, spell names, spell visuals, etc. It's a giant floating hand that's connected to a little tiny-blue-star-guy. If it was like a Sniper who aims a Rifle at the targets, with Sniper-ish names, etc it would much better fit in with HoN, and I would probably support it more. Sorry you feel my opinion is the most pathetic thing you've read on this forum. To be honest, I don't give a ****.

  11. #31
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    A number of issues with this guy if we're taking him seriously..

    We'll take the powers in order.

    Poke;

    Replica of Armadon's snot. This needs re-thinking. I'd recomend this be a slight damage instead of armor reduction for some degree of seperation. Something like 15/20/25/30 damage per poke seems inkeeping with your desire not to have the hero deal reliable damage.

    Flick;

    This power seems to be replicating the force staff effect (which as we saw when combined with bloodseeker in DoTA was completely inbalanced in the early game) Both the cooldown and mana cost for this ability seem kind of prohibitive for what it does. If you want to have this power be really impactful I'd recomend dropping the mana cost to 75 and the cooldown to 14/12/10/8 second. Let him use this to really disrupt enemies and assist allies in closing on chases. Personally I'd also like to see this get the same micro damage impliment as poke, 15/20/25/30.

    Floating Doom;

    I'm incredibly dubious of a power that is based exclusively on targeting a unit. I was dubious of it for the tormentor and I'm dubious of it for Mahnd. I'd recommend replacing it with..

    Grab
    The floating hand reaches down and squeezes the life out of it's victim.
    Only affects enemies.

    Cooldown: 20 seconds
    Manacost: 110/120/130/140
    Duration: 3/4/5/6
    Damage: -1/2/3/4%hp/second
    attacking during this duration will break channeling however his movement is not limited unlike a channeled effect. Prevents other hand based spells.

    Yes, I know what you're going to say. "boo damage dealing". But in practical terms this is similar to a single targeted version of tempest's meteor on a smaller scale. It also serves a similar purpose to Polywog's shackle but has a little bit of Mahnd style to it by reinforcing the concept that he and his floating hand are seperate entities.

    Assist; see below.

    I like the concept you've given and the way you've presented it, I hope it gets taken seriously.
    Last edited by Darkblade_1; 08-11-2009 at 07:48 AM.

  12. #32
    Your suggestion for a new ult ruins him completely. I like the other changes though.
    Quote Originally Posted by uhhhahhhohah View Post
    perhaps you'd like to explain your pro-apartheid stance to everyone
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobble View Post
    It has no Vuvuzalas.

  13. #33
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    Hmm.. I've read over NinjaPant's re-explanation of Assist and I suppose it doesn't need as massive a revision as I gave it.

    Noted and removed.

  14. #34
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    Lovely hero you have there, very noob friendly. Simplify the explanation of the ultimate, though. Kinda ironic how this is supposed to be noob-friendly hero but then the ult is a bit complicated.. I know I would be confused and would have to test this out, followed by angry barrages of "omg nub dont use ur ult!! nub!! 1oneone"

  15. #35
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    Our little Kirby is going strong! Another 15 votes and he's into Top Suggestions.
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  16. #36
    he's a bit OP. A deso and hyperstone lets him wreak havoc from afar quite easily, auto targeting due to ult even with 50% less damage, a deso and hyper and any agi will hurt them a lot.

    Flick just mimics force staff. I would Add damage and a small stun, maybe 1.8 seconds at level 4, you know so when you send them to your allies they can have a little time to combo it without him blinking etc.
    Last edited by Puck_My_Life; 08-11-2009 at 01:20 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Hippie View Post
    Gargantuan Guide
    Holy, what. Who. That's no mini-guide! That's a full blown guide, man.
    You're definitely getting your own hero sheet. Just send me the details and I'll get started on it right away. Super Awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dconnenc View Post
    Just wondering, but can flick be used on yourself as a pseudo-escape?
    Yes it can. ;]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rokman View Post
    I voted "Eh, I don't really like it. :[ (Please post why!)" for the sheer fact of Mahnd's visual style. I really don't think the way he looks would really "fit in" with the other characters of HoN. I invision this more to be something like a Nintendo character, actually.

    If Mahnd was completely redesigned graphically, maybe then it could be a nice addition. Great job on the presentation though!
    Haha, I completely respect your opinion as I thought about this a bunch as well. I'm sure they won't take him completely in the same form as he is now. Maybe they'll change the mini-guy to be more ghostlike or skeletal if he's Hellborne or maybe make him more golem like if he's Legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblade_1 View Post
    A number of issues with this guy if we're taking him seriously..
    Poke;

    Replica of Armadon's snot. This needs re-thinking. I'd recomend this be a slight damage instead of armor reduction for some degree of seperation. Something like 15/20/25/30 damage per poke seems inkeeping with your desire not to have the hero deal reliable damage.
    Hmm, although I do agree it's very similar to armadon's snot. I think the way it is currently is probably the most 'helpful' right now, instead of 'selfish'. (I hope you understand what I mean by helpful and selfish, they are the best words I can think of right now.) And unlike armadon's snot, the entire stack refreshes every time you cast it. Hmm...if you can think of something that is also 'helpful' but different from the armor reduction, I'll be happy to look it through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblade_1 View Post
    Flick;

    This power seems to be replicating the force staff effect (which as we saw when combined with bloodseeker in DoTA was completely inbalanced in the early game) Both the cooldown and mana cost for this ability seem kind of prohibitive for what it does. If you want to have this power be really impactful I'd recomend dropping the mana cost to 75 and the cooldown to 14/12/10/8 second. Let him use this to really disrupt enemies and assist allies in closing on chases. Personally I'd also like to see this get the same micro damage impliment as poke, 15/20/25/30.
    Originally, I didn't notice that it was just like Force Staff. (This was back when it only pushed 300) But once I did come to this realization, I based the cooldown straight off of it. Force Staff's mana cost is 100 and has a cooldown of 30 seconds. I thought I should have something similarly close to that. Also, as stated before, I don't want flick to do damage because you can use it on allies and yourself as well, and I feel as though doing damage may make it more 'selfish'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblade_1 View Post
    Floating Doom;

    I'm incredibly dubious of a power that is based exclusively on targeting a unit. I was dubious of it for the tormentor and I'm dubious of it for Mahnd. I'd recommend replacing it with..

    Grab
    The floating hand reaches down and squeezes the life out of it's victim.
    Only affects enemies.

    Cooldown: 20 seconds
    Manacost: 110/120/130/140
    Duration: 3/4/5/6
    Damage: -1/2/3/4%hp/second
    attacking during this duration will break channeling however his movement is not limited unlike a channeled effect. Prevents other hand based spells.

    Yes, I know what you're going to say. "boo damage dealing". But in practical terms this is similar to a single targeted version of tempest's meteor on a smaller scale. It also serves a similar purpose to Polywog's shackle but has a little bit of Mahnd style to it by reinforcing the concept that he and his floating hand are seperate entities.
    Yes! Finally! I was waiting for someone to confirm my fears! For the longest time I thought this skill was much too, 'free hits'like, but I didn't want to get rid of it due to the fact that it was probably the best defense against a heavily farmed tank. I thought that kind of power would be very good for a newb hero. I also thought that maybe instead of damage it should just debuff and lower the amount they regen, but then maybe that's too powerful. Because with damage you can always get magic armor to lower how much you take...a regen debuff is less 'selfish' though...

    And don't get me wrong, I do like your skill suggestion, but I was hoping to keep with the newbie theme and not overwhelm the character with 4 spells to manage. I wanted this one to be just a simple passive that they don't have to worry too much about.

    If you have any other thoughts, I would be happy to hear them. I would like a bit more discussion about this skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblade_1 View Post
    I like the concept you've given and the way you've presented it, I hope it gets taken seriously.
    Thank you, :}
    By the way, I can see you put some thought into that post; so I'm going to consider it a mini-guide! I'll have your free sig ready as soon as you give me your hero details.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnemyAnemone View Post
    Lovely hero you have there, very noob friendly. Simplify the explanation of the ultimate, though. Kinda ironic how this is supposed to be noob-friendly hero but then the ult is a bit complicated.. I know I would be confused and would have to test this out, followed by angry barrages of "omg nub dont use ur ult!! nub!! 1oneone"
    Haha. Yea, the ultimate is explained very poorly. I had to try and get the meaning out in the fewest possible words. Unfortunately I was not very good at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puck_My_Life View Post
    he's a bit OP. A deso and hyperstone lets him wreak havoc from afar quite easily, auto targeting due to ult even with 50% less damage, a deso and hyper and any agi will hurt them a lot.
    Yea, I was worried about this. I'm considering lowering both his agi gain, int gain, and perhaps making his ultimate either not do any damage at all, or further reduce the amount of damage it can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Puck_My_Life View Post
    Flick just mimics force staff. I would Add damage and a small stun, maybe 1.8 seconds at level 4, you know so when you send them to your allies they can have a little time to combo it without him blinking etc.
    Yeah, I know...but this game doesn't have a force staff...so maybe it could be of use?
    I didn't want to give him any stuns as, I felt that would conflict with poke, and also the fact that he can use it on allies. I think it's pretty powerful the way it is now since it can be used to both lure enemies into your team as well as help teammates escape the other team. Although if you do come up with any other ideas, I'll take them into serious consideration.

    Edit: Changed starting stats a bit.
    18 strength (From 16)
    19 intelligence (From 21)
    Lowered agility gain to 2.5 (From 2.6)
    Increased damage reduction on ult to 70% (From 50%)
    Lowered cooldown of Flick to 22/18/14/10 (From 40/35/30/25)
    Last edited by NinjaPants; 08-11-2009 at 06:00 PM.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaPants View Post
    Holy, what. Who. That's no mini-guide! That's a full blown guide, man.
    I had some free time, and you've designed a hero I feel would be a humongous blast to play. Thus out of respect for him I wrote a full-fledged guide
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghidoran View Post
    "A competitive team did it" does not mean it is a good idea.

  19. #39
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    If you're adamant against putting any form of damage on poke/flick then I'd recommend at least that they both break channeling effects on enemy units (but not allies), also to my knowledge the entire stack of snot does refresh with each application, giving the power a micro-stun should nicely distinguish it without being too "selfish".

    While I understand your reasoning for the numbers you put for the flick power the consideration I have is what Mahnd will actually be doing during the course of a fight. He has two active powers, Poke and Flick.

    Again similarly to armadon his game will focus mostly around grinding his enemy's move speed down to nothing and kiting him or having someone else finish him off. Something like a ranged tank. Since Poke is on a 4 second cooldown and flick is on (at best) a 25 he'll mostly just be running in tiny circles and poking enemies until they can't move.

    The costs on force staff are what they are because it's an item, purchasable by anyone, a hero who is essentially relying on it as one of the only two things he can do in a fight needs a lower cooldown. Mahnd in his current itteration is very much a controller in the vein of the puppet master. I like this conceptually and would recomend flick have a similar cooldown. Maybe just a flat drop to 12 seconds is more appropriate than a scaling slide down to 8 but moving 1 unit 500 distance every 25 seconds just isn't worth leveling up.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Hippie View Post
    I had some free time, and you've designed a hero I feel would be a humongous blast to play. Thus out of respect for him I wrote a full-fledged guide
    I really appreciate it. ;]
    Are you sure you don't want a hero sheet?
    Or at least maybe a sig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblade_1 View Post
    If you're adamant against putting any form of damage on poke/flick then I'd recommend at least that they both break channeling effects on enemy units (but not allies), also to my knowledge the entire stack of snot does refresh with each application, giving the power a micro-stun should nicely distinguish it without being too "selfish".
    Excellent, excellent idea!
    I assume you mean to replace the armor decrease with this?
    Superb idea. I'll go edit it in right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblade_1 View Post
    The costs on force staff are what they are because it's an item, purchasable by anyone, a hero who is essentially relying on it as one of the only two things he can do in a fight needs a lower cooldown. Mahnd in his current itteration is very much a controller in the vein of the puppet master. I like this conceptually and would recomend flick have a similar cooldown. Maybe just a flat drop to 12 seconds is more appropriate than a scaling slide down to 8 but moving 1 unit 500 distance every 25 seconds just isn't worth leveling up.
    Ah I see, that makes much more sense. I'll change that as well.

    By the way, would you also like a sig?


    Other notes:
    Added a filtered poll.
    The filtered poll will have results that more clearly depict what the community wants.
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    Engineer's Direction Based Turret
    Riftshard Upgrades


    If I don't respond to your pm, it's because I'm currently processing and evaluating other pms.

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