Thread: The infamous mid lane

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  1. #1
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    The infamous mid lane

    Hi.
    I have some questions about mid lane. So without further ado let's get this started.

    1. Which melee heroes works mid, why, and against what heroes?
    -I know that Blood Hunter works, because he's awesome. Zephyr as well. I know Pharaoh does as well, but I don't know why. I've seen Pebbles do it, and a few more heroes (like Predator and Mage Bane), but not as often.

    2. Dual mid lane? Pros, cons?
    -There are some obvious pros for having two heroes mid, such as: being able to kill their mid-laner more easily, rune control, easier ganking. So why do I rarely see this kind of line up?
    What other pros/cons are there?
    Shoes wisely.. -Bell ringer!

  2. #2
    Ok, so here it goes.

    Everything can lane mid. The important thing is not to let the enemy solo mid get a lot of farm if he needs it.

    I.e, don't have a weak solo mid vs CD/SS/anything remotely close to a carry.

    If the enemy goes for a ganker mid -> i.e Pebbles, Hag, CD, DW, Pharaoh, Bloodhunter, etc, you HAVE to control runes or you/side lanes will be obliterated.

    Most melee heroes that can solo mid are either:
    - gankers - Pebbles, Pharaoh, DW, BH
    - heroes that are hard to gank and have mobility like Magebane/Scout/Madman

    Dualling mid lane is good when you are faced with a weak solo mid and you can lane carry + support there.

    E.g Pharaoh/Pebbles vs Zeph/Chronos/Magebane + Plague

    Don't do it if the opponent has a strong range hero mid, like Hag or SS, since they usually get runes and have AoE anyway, so laning 2 heroes vs them is a bad idea.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phrosen View Post
    1. Which melee heroes works mid, why, and against what heroes?
    -I know that Blood Hunter works, because he's awesome. Zephyr as well. I know Pharaoh does as well, but I don't know why. I've seen Pebbles do it, and a few more heroes (like Predator and Mage Bane), but not as often.
    Blood Hunter works because he has an inate lifesteal ability. Not because he is awesome.
    Zephyr works, because his cyclones heal him, and keep enemies at distance, plus he has a decent escape mechanism with gust.
    Pharaoh can use his rocket to last hit and harass, which is viable to a certain extend.
    Pebbles can work with an early bottle and rune control (i.e. Wards), because he needs the mana to cs and still have enough to possibly get a burst-damage kill.
    Predator again has an inate lifesteal ability, although I think he is more viable for woods.
    Magebane is a joke in mid, imo, he should be babysat in lane for decent farm.

    Other melee heroes that work:
    Deadwood: strong last hitting ability and deny ability, combined with instagib at level 6.
    Panda: strong last hitting ability and with a bottle and boots he can start ganking side lanes early.
    Blacksmith: People like playing him mid, high base damage on level 1, combined with hatchet he can CS well.
    Magmus: If built with Volcanic Touch can CS well and harass at the same time.
    Madman: Used to be standard, gotten less ever since the nerf (albeit the nerf was pretty much removed again). Exceptional escape mechanism, and with bottle + boots incredible sidelane gank.
    Devourer: Dangerous from level 1, if he can plant a hook. Can deny himself, and at level 6 is a potential instagib.
    Accursed: Albeit being played as support pretty much always, some use him in mid. With mana regen and bottle can cs and harass with shield + cauterize.
    Kraken: Decent escape, strong and cheap last hitting mechanism, also, you want him level 6 asap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrosen View Post
    2. Dual mid lane? Pros, cons?
    -There are some obvious pros for having two heroes mid, such as: being able to kill their mid-laner more easily, rune control, easier ganking. So why do I rarely see this kind of line up?
    What other pros/cons are there?
    Con: A solo top (Hellbourne) or solo bot (Legion) can be ganked alot easier, since it is easier to catch him between towers, and tower diving is easy.
    Also, your solo will have to stand against 2, which usually means less CSing.

  4. #4
    1) Pharo does because he can spam rocket to harass and last hit creeps, letting him survive the lane and get level 6 faster, to which he can gank. Also a great rune whore. Blacksmith, Pebbles, Predator, and Deadwood are similar except they just have high damage with hatchet to be able to last hit creeps earlier than their ranged counterparts. Throw in a buckler and their harassment is severely hindered as well. The only hero that can melee solo mid for really no reason except to survive the lane is Keeper of the forest. Hes a hero who does not need really need farm, but if you have a lineup with no other true solo's or a need for strong lanes, you can stick kotf mid and let him fend for himself.

    2) Pros - Stopping a strong solo mid from freefarming on a somewhat weaker mid. are the main two that come to mind. Putting a dual lane mid can help, and mostlikely you actually put the babysit lane mid, but you can also put 2 gankers mid as well.

    Cons - leaves a sidelane solo, which is usually a bad thing since side lanes are easier to gank. Kind of only want to do that if you have a solo with escapes. are the main heroes for solo side lanes.

    The reason you dont see it is because people are unwilling to do those lanes.

  5. #5
    It's easier to survive a 2on1 in a midlane rather than a sidelane. Range heroes generally have an advantage over melee heroes, there are of course exceptions like the ones you mentioned.
    Mid lane is a good spot for a ganker hero, push the lane a bit and you can go gank either lane without anyone know which one, unless they ward ofc. 3on2 ganks are ususally better than 2on2 even if one of your mates is ambushing.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by MobZombie View Post

    Dualling mid lane is good when you are faced with a weak solo mid and you can lane carry + support there.

    E.g Pharaoh/Pebbles vs Zeph/Chronos/Magebane + Plague

    Don't do it if the opponent has a strong range hero mid, like Hag or SS, since they usually get runes and have AoE anyway, so laning 2 heroes vs them is a bad idea.
    isnt dual mid the idea behind countering a strong mid?

    eg, bs and witch vs SS
    Quote Originally Posted by l2p_` View Post
    You sicken me S2.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Control` View Post
    isnt dual mid the idea behind countering a strong mid?

    eg, bs and witch vs SS
    In a competitive environment, a ranged solo mid will just fetch bottle through courier back and forth, so it's impossible to stop them from farming
    (SS,CD,Hag,etc)

    You will never get Blacksmith in a BD/BP game since he is always banned anyway

    There was a game such as what you are describing, I think it was AsR vs WHP, chu was SS vs BS + Witch.

    He had a hard time, but managed and eventually won.

  8. #8
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    1. - basically high base dmg and harrass/lifesteal is what you need.
    Please notice that not all of them will work great and some are only viable vs certain enemies (e.g. Kraken or Zephyr are WAY better if the enemy is melee) - but all can work.
    You do it to a) get a certain level fast (Deadwood, Panda, BH, Zephyr, Kraken etc) or b) to outlashit someone with a hatchet (BH vs SS or so) or c) and mostly with a ganker to reach both top and bot lane easily (DW,BS, Pharaoh, Pebbles, Panda, Devourer etc).

    2. dual mid lanes are mostly used to stop potentially dominatig semi carries like soulstealer. You can cut their farm or even destroy them if you set up good ganks.
    The problem is that you will habe a solo lane somehwere else - this is only possible if the player there knows what he's doing and has picked the right hero - :fors: are the only ones i'd suggest.
    Also you can't really pick a jungling hero then.
    And mid ganks work almost exclusively with dual stun lanes as the enemie can hug his tower and has a short way back to base.
    Last edited by MrMephisto; 03-24-2010 at 08:30 AM.

  9. #9
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    I'm surprised no one has mentioned Soul Reaper as solo on side-lane, with dual mid-lane tactics.

    I saw electrician own mid lane the other day. He IS quite strong since the last update. But how would he fare in a real (competitive) game as solo mid laner?


    Quote Originally Posted by MobZombie View Post
    There was a game such as what you are describing, I think it was AsR vs WHP, chu was SS vs BS + Witch.

    He had a hard time, but managed and eventually won.
    Weak-ass SS vs BS and witch?
    Surely SS' team send reinforcements?
    Shoes wisely.. -Bell ringer!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phrosen View Post
    Weak-ass SS vs BS and witch?
    Surely SS' team send reinforcements?
    More like it was chu versus AsR folks... duh :d

  11. #11
    I usually go mid lane with every hero every game, just so I dont end up asking my self why im higher level than my allied hero soloing mid lane, my fav hero mid is Chronos and I understand why ppl cant handle that.. I have won 9/10 chronos games ALL mid lane and the only game I lost I had a MQ in my team that came and leeched xp when I had plague rider vs me, and plague higher lvl then the midder is a REALLY bad thing... http://stats.maide.ca/players/view/PrinceTricky

    so imo every hero can mid as long as the player knows how to

  12. #12
    buy regen, and you can lane mid with anything.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrosen View Post
    Hi.
    I have some questions about mid lane. So without further ado let's get this started.

    1. Which melee heroes works mid, why, and against what heroes?
    -I know that Blood Hunter works, because he's awesome. Zephyr as well. I know Pharaoh does as well, but I don't know why. I've seen Pebbles do it, and a few more heroes (like Predator and Mage Bane), but not as often.

    2. Dual mid lane? Pros, cons?
    -There are some obvious pros for having two heroes mid, such as: being able to kill their mid-laner more easily, rune control, easier ganking. So why do I rarely see this kind of line up?
    What other pros/cons are there?
    1.) deadwood, pebbles, pharoah, magebane, predator, bloodhunter, blacksmith, kraken, panda.

    2.) pros: unexpected, can screw up the guy they are relying on to hit 6 quickly and gank, Offers more protection than any other lane for the carry you babysit there. cons: harder to keep the creeps by your tower, less chances of early kills unless you can get a good tower dive off... even if you do you might have to go heal, makes your solo lane isolated which means two players have to go missing normally to succesfully gank that lane, exposes your solo lane to a 1v2, eliminating the relative advantage you gain by dominating mid UNLESS your 1v2 solo is actually a hero or player that can pull it off well. Lastly, the herost hat can pull it off well either need farm (tort/defiler/ss) or DONT need to be high level to be effective (vindicator)

  14. #14
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    DotA used to run exclusively dual mid and a solo else where. It worked extremely effectively because those were times when games were EXTREMELY aggressive. Within 20 minutes-30 minutes, the first two towers if not all 3 would be gone already.

    There's just too much turtling for dual mid to be of any worth.

  15. #15
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    Pharaoh doesn't need level 6 to gank, in theory he just needs l1 hellfire and l1 wall of mummies. In practice you'll put something like a hasterune or invis run to get to work with that.

    You put him mid so he can gank either sidelane more easily(least travel time) and he can control all 3 lanes from mid with tormented souls. He can also more easily reveal opponents ganking and assist with counterganks from very long range.

    This is also one of the general rules to put a hero mid: map control, be it deadwood, pharaoh, pebbles, etc etc you put them mid because they have good influence in the sidelanes rather than just mid. Most viable mids have this property with the exception of heroes like blood hunters, corrupted disciple, soulstealer and puppet. They CAN gank, but they SHOULD spend their time on farming up their early game levels and items in hopes of getting to their lategame a LOT quicker.

  16. #16
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    A Fun thing to do with Pharaoh if you wont be ganking as often is Getting 1 lvl hellfire/1 mummies, but then concentrating on Tormented Soul+Stats. you can really spam weaky mids down quickly (IE: SS,MQ, etc)
    U ?

  17. #17
    I think the pharoah buff coming out in the next couple of days is being overlooked by many. he was already strong, now hes almost retard-proof. I expect to see alot more pharoah

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayrod View Post
    I think the pharoah buff coming out in the next couple of days is being overlooked by many. he was already strong, now hes almost retard-proof. I expect to see alot more pharoah
    His buff is that people within a certain range of pharaoh when mummies are activated are sure to stay within the walls instead of popping outside of it. His lategame will still be ****.

  19. #19
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    His lategame will still be locking down your initiator (tempest/behemoth) or carry while the rest his team murders yours.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AquaBomb View Post
    His lategame will still be locking down your initiator (tempest/behemoth) or carry while the rest his team murders yours.
    Or be disruptive to the either opposing team, it doesn't matter on that account. Though I think he should be more effective with that in lategame.

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