-RR (Random Roles)

**[H3LP]IntErlIdEr** · 03-19-2010, 10:55 AM

Firstly, thank you for taking your time, and hope to see you supporting this idea. A couple of considerations:
-this is a game mode, meaning it doesn't affect you unless you want to play it;
-this is a suggestion, meaning it isn't set on stone and can be adjusted to your needs;
-this is my suggestion, meaning I'm entitles to disagree with your feedback if it is contrary to my initial concept design, at my own discresion;
-last but not least,

loves you just the way you are.

So anyways, on to the suggestion.

---

SUGGESTION:
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Everyone gets a random hero based on a quality pool. All heroes will be given a category Role (carry, disabler, support, nuker, pusher, stunner, tanks) and teams will spawn random heroes factoring the presumed ideal amount of each role a team needs.

ROLES:
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Directly from Pyrate's Heroes of Newerth Glossary, "Hero Roles" section, inspired on Kaution's Guide:

Hero Roles
In HoN you will hear players referring to heroes as things such as support or carry. These are hero roles. They describe the type of role a hero plays on a team. Thanks to Kaution, as I took these from his guide.
Carry
Heroes which specialize at killing other heroes through physical damage. Most heroes that have windwalk, an invsisibility skill, or blink can fall into this catergory. Often these heroes need to get more gold than other classes.
Disablers
Heroes who possess the ability to disable other characters, basically forcing them into a disadvantage while they attempt to fight or flee. Disables include any spells that move the enemy without his or her consent, stun an enemy, reduce movement speed, disallow movement, reduce damage, reduce attack speed, reduce armor, prevent physical attack or prevent spell casting. Though many spells fall under these catergories, the general rule of an effect disable spell is a spell that can extend and enemy's precence in combat against his or her will, which therefor only includes the first four of the listed effects. Also, passive abilities are often ignored as disables. Pollywog Priest and Puppeter are examples as they both have two skills that are classed as Disable.
Support
Heroes whose skills are meant to directly aid the rest of the team. Heroes with healing or protective skills fall into this catergory. Pushers can be counted as support, although somtimes they can be used individually instead of working together with the team.
Nukers
Heroes which possess the ability to cause an significant amount of damage in a single instant via use of an activated spell in lieu of a physical attack. E.g. Pyromancer.
Pushers
Heroes which can quickly destroy enemy towers and creep generators due to their ability to summon additional units or deal damage to an area of enemy creeps.
Stunners
Heroes who posses the ability to stun other characters. Certain heroes have passive skills enabling their attacks to have a chance of stunning. When such heroes are able to keep an enemy constantly stunned it is known informally as permastun or stunlock.
Tanks
Heroes who can absorb huge amounts of damage with either high health or armor count. Typically used to tank towers or enemies.

The idea is to add 2 of these tags to each hero, so that the random factor algorithm can factor it when deciding the ideal matchup. In other words, each team will get 5 random heroes based on how many of each type a team needs.

TEAM COMPOSITION:
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(this is where it gets harder to please everyone, so bare with me and please do give your feedback on this)

So, the idea is to have the "ideal" amount of each role in a team. According to my own personal experience, depending on the heroes present on a team, the same team can act very differently from one game to another. I say this because playing with my friends several games on a rowe, I get to see my friends act very ditincitvely depending on the heroes we get.

Said so, I believe there are many different team compositions that can work out pretty well. For this section though, I'm not going to allow a one-role team. I know it is tempting to get 5 pushers, or 5 nukers, and in some circles (*coughs* EM *coughs*) 5 carries. Instead, I'll try to make it a little bit more versatile.

CATEGORY A: A team must have:
1 carry;
1 support;

CATEGORY B: A team can have:
+1 carry
+1 suport
1 nuker
1 tank
1 disabler
1 pusher

CATEGORY C: A team might have (half chance from proc'ing than the above):
+1 nuker
+1 disabler
+1 pusher
1 stunner

With this in mind, we have the slots (note: slots do not indicate a collor, just a team):
Slot 1: 100% chance 'carry'
Slot 2: 100% chance 'support'
Slot 3: 75% chance 'category B' (12.5% each); 25% chance 'category C' (6.25% each)
Slot 4: 75% chance 'category B' (12.5% each); 25% chance 'category C' (6.25% each)
Slot 5: 75% chance 'category B' (12.5% each); 25% chance 'category C' (6.25% each)

To break it down, for slot 1 and 2, the game will random a hero from the 'carry' pool and another hero from the 'support' pool. These heroes will be asigned randomly to two of the players in each team. For slots 3 onwards, the game will random a hero from categories 'B' and 'C' accordingly.

HEROES AND CATEGORIES:
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Like I said above, each hero will be assigned 2 categories to which it might belong. Some heroes will belong to a category more than another. Still, for the sake of not overdoing it, they'll get 2 categories nonetheless.

So on to the heroes (again, thanks to Pyrate's Heroes of Newerth Glossary, "Heroes" section for bringing them all together):

Accursed - Support/Tank
Andromeda - Support/Stunner
Arachna - Carry/Support
Armadon - Tank/Disabler
Behemoth - Stunner/Disabler
Blacksmith - Stunner/Disabler
Blood Hunter - Carry/Disabler
Chronos - Carry/Stunner
Corrupted Disciple - Carry/Nuker
Deadwood - Nuker/Disabler
Defiler - Pusher/Nuker
Demented Shaman - Support/Disabler
Devourer - Disabler/Stunner
Electrician - Disabler/Support
Engineer - Disabler/Support
Forsaken Archer - Carry/Stunner
Glacius - Disabler/Support
Hammerstorm - Stunner/Support
Hellbringer - Pusher/Stunner
Jeraziah - Support/Tank
Keeper of the Forest - Support/Tank
Kraken - Support/Disabler
Legionnaire - Tank/Disabler
Magebane - Carry/Nuker
Magmus - Stunner/Nuker
Moon Queen - Carry/Nuker
Night Hound - Carruy/Support
Nymphora - Support/Stunner
Ophelia - Support/Disabler
Pebbles - Nuker/Disabler
Pestilence - Carry/Stunner
Pharoah - Stunner/Tank
Plague Rider - Nuker/Support
Pollywog Priest - Disabler/Pusher
Predator - Carry/Tank
Puppet Master - Disabler/Carry
Pyromancer - Nuker/Pusher
Rampage - Disabler/Carry
Sand Wraith - Carry/Tank
Scout - Carry/Disabler
Slither - Pusher/Support
Soul Reaper - Support/Tank
Soul Stealer - Carry/Nuker
Succubus - Disabler/Nuker
Swiftblade - Carry/Nuker
Tempest - Disabler/Pusher
The Dark Lady - Carry/Disabler
The Madman - Support/Nuker
Thunderbringer - Nuker/Support
Torturer - Nuker/Stunner
Valkyrie - Carry/Nuker
Vindicator - Disabler/Support
Voodoo Jester - Nuker/Disabler
Warbeast - Carry/Pusher
Wildsoul - Carry/Pusher
Witchslayer - Disabler/Nuker
Wretched Hag - Nuker/Support
Zephyr - Carry/Tank

So, the idea behind having 2 categories is that a hero can be eligible for one or the other category. Each hero was given a certain role, though since it was adjusted by myself, this is open to suggestions. Please, bare in mind that we can't make everyone happy, so don't undermine this project if you disagree with 1 or 2. Actually, do it only if you disagree with at least 20 of them, and try to consider that there won't be a 100% consensus, so we have to tell which we disagree but try to also concede those we disagree for the sake of consensus.

USES OF 'RR' MODE:
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Some might be asking themselves "why should we even bother?". I have to tell you guys, this mode is going to be very useful. Some of the arguments I've come to think about, plus others I'll add as more people bring their feedback:
-help prearranged teams find new ways to try new heroes without having to brainstorm themselves a good, reasonable and sensate team;
-help new commers grasp the concept of 'team' and how to work together, forcing them to try new roles and interact with other roles in-game;
-it is also a great way to improve the game experience of 'easy mode' users who are tired of playing 5 carries vs 5 carries;
-a good way to try new heroes without having to random only to screw your team with unuseful heroes that won't be useful on the team's matchup.

If you think about it, there are many great arguments why to have pre-arranged roles embued teams. When playing with friends, you might want to put your true skill to a test grabbing 5 unexpected, unusually played (by yourself) heroes and try to see if you won thanks to your picks or thanks to your team and persona skill. This mode would help teams prove themselves against other teams without having to worry so much about the picking phase as they do with the rest of the game.

This mode is also wonderful for random players who are tired of the same heroes, but that are pissed with screwed up 'all random' matchups that add zero to their player experience.

Lastly, it'd help the new commers, who need to get a grasp on concepts such as 'team' and 'roles'. A team has to work together to achieve victory; learning what your role is and how to maximize it will ensure they know what to do when they are playing against good enemies who have a better grasp of things. Instead of getting a random hero that might not be a good 'team' choice, they would be getting something more team oriented and hence more HoN-like.

FINAL CONSIDERATIONS:
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Well, I figured this out some time ago, but never really had the chance to post this because... well, as you can see, this is pretty extensive. Once again, I plea for you not to just vote on what is here, but also on what could be made out of this suggestion. This is a very preliminary idea and I want to build upon it.

I would personally like a lot to use this mode and I know many would get to love it as well.

Hope to see your comments with feedback, and your votes with informed and reliable arguments.

~IntEr

**[H3LP]IntErlIdEr** · 03-20-2010, 01:38 PM

Little Bump.

~IntEr

**[H3LP]IntErlIdEr** · 03-24-2010, 10:58 AM

Another bump (do note this is happening 4 days after the first bump).

~IntEr

**kaboo_** · 03-24-2010, 11:20 AM

no thanks, if the team need some random-based system to force players play a hero the way it was randomed then that team has lost anyways

also even with this supreme random system you can still get this team:
swift - carry
blood hunter - disabler
arachna - support
chronos - stunner
sandwraith - tank

great team, rly

p.s.: you didnt include scout in the list of heroes on purpose or just by mistake?

**[H3LP]IntErlIdEr** · 03-24-2010, 01:28 PM

lol I copied the list from the links stated in the OP... if any, my mistake was not to double check the list. If there are any other heroes missing, please do tell. I'll add scout asap.

Also, about the matchup you quoted, it is indeed possible to get that. But then again, you'll be able to play better than if you didn't get any stunner or tank, so ultimately your "worst" matchup would still be more playable than all random's "worst" matchup.

~IntEr

**SinsofSanity** · 03-25-2010, 03:01 PM

Arachna is not a support. Yes you use her for the slow, but that does not make her a support. Also, why have you not included initiators? :s

**[H3LP]IntErlIdEr** · 03-25-2010, 03:09 PM

Well, for the roles, I used up Pyrate's Heroes of Newerth Glossary, "Hero Roles" section, inspired on Kaution's Guide. I understand that initiators are considered by many a separate role, but fact is that one builds a hero to be an initiator.

If we consider pure initiators, as in, regardless of items, we'll have maybe andro and Hellbringer, whilst heroes such as Tempest, despite being used to initiate, are in essence other roles. This is my understanding at least.

About Arachna, you have to remember that each hero will receive 2 roles, so despite Arachna being much more a Carry than a Support hero, her slows and aura assist her team to achieve kills in ganks and for that reason I considered her that as well.

Of course, everything is open to negociation.

~IntEr

**TreeHorse** · 03-25-2010, 05:06 PM

I'm going to have to talk to Pyrate. Tank is not a role.

That said, this is basically SD, only better... I like the idea.

**[WuV]Shihamut1** · 03-25-2010, 06:36 PM

I very much like the concept, seeing as how 'most' game types can have unbalanced teams, this one at least adds a little fun, besides just having 5 carrier/nukers VS. 5 support/disables from a random game.

**Dewdler** · 03-28-2010, 02:46 AM

I voted yes because game modes are really just for fun and we aren't forced to play them. That being said, I have no idea who this pyrate guy is, but he needs to get some things straight...
You definately need to put in ganker in there, and if you're are going to put sub roles in (such as tank) then should definately include roamer and babsitter.
Also your hero list definately needs some rethinking.

**yyr_** · 03-28-2010, 03:08 AM

i am so happy that you didnt put hammerstorm under carry

I think succubus should be "Disabler/Stunner" because of she isnt really played like a nuker :P but im wouldnt complain if she was left as she was +)

Good idea tho

**Kwaidah** · 03-31-2010, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by kaboo_

no thanks, if the team need some random-based system to force players play a hero the way it was randomed then that team has lost anyways

also even with this supreme random system you can still get this team:
swift - carry
blood hunter - disabler
arachna - support
chronos - stunner
sandwraith - tank

great team, rly

p.s.: you didnt include scout in the list of heroes on purpose or just by mistake?

its bcuz scout is always on the team.

**[H3LP]IntErlIdEr** · 03-31-2010, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by teddyoojo

its bcuz scout is always on the team.

No, it's because only people who prepurchase can pick scout, of course.

~IntEr

**[LntC]Lollygag** · 03-31-2010, 12:08 PM

I love the concept of this idea, but I don't think it warrants an entirely new game mode. Why not just incorporate this algorithm into -AR? There are so many times i've played -AR and landed a 5 agi team.

**brzdynks** · 04-14-2010, 01:13 PM

It's great idea, mainly if you are playin alone. In RR mode you'll be sure that in game won't be for example 5 carry heroes.

**A_Noob** · 04-14-2010, 05:01 PM

I really liked it. It would make pub games easier

**Neirshal** · 04-18-2010, 04:08 PM

I like this a lot. I tend to stay away from -AR modes because you end up with awkward team combos, but I like picking random. If this became a new mode or added to the -AR algorithm, it would be a really good addition. The only issue with adding this to the -AR algorithm is that some people actually want an all random team, not limited in any way.

**WarKirby** · 04-18-2010, 04:24 PM

I like it, but not as a seperate game mode.
I'd like to see it as an additional button on hero select. Next to random, "Random By Role". You could choose the role you want to play, and an appropriate random hero could be selected

**[KPB]_poop_** · 04-18-2010, 09:41 PM

this is too flawed if you ask me. sure, heroes have specific roles they are best at, but the great thing about this game is the fact that a hero's role can change based on how you play him. just don't think this adds anything to the game

**Grett** · 04-22-2010, 05:27 PM

Tank isn't a class in HoN, but Ganker and Initiator are both classes. Valkyrie is not a carry, nor is she a nuker. She is a Ganker/Initiator.

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