|
|
I did miss that sorry and thanks. I will concede that point.Originally Posted by Extreme_Cake
Im still not convinced Madman isnt a viable carry just because he isn't as popular as the others. TDL isn't very popular either and theres bunch of ppl on this thread that think shes viable and deserves a profile. Its really all a matter of personal experience. I have used madman to carry effectively, and I have seen plenty of others do this as well in 1650 -1700+ games. That is the limit of my experience in HoN, and I would say most of ppl reading this are somewhere near there.
You're probably correct when you say that they could work in competitive play, and if you're not aiming for a competitive guide, then I'd say go for it. TDL works fine in pubs, it's just comp she gets screwed in.
I don't get the swiftblade hate. Swiftblade has the potential to dominate during all 3 phases mentioned. His 4 abilities are all very useful lategame and with the right items he becomes a true killing machine. Recently I've been building him with 2 runed axes lifesteal and hack and slash and he is almost unstoppable. Imo swift is a very viable lategame carry with a strong earlygame.No way. Swiftblade is pretty obviously an early game superstar that has a moderate at best late game. Swift requires at least one other hero on the tream to combo with so he can get a few early lane kills. Swift doesnt need to farm a lane for 25+minutes to be effective. SO comparing swift to madman is pointless, they do completely different jobs.
Madman is still a very solid carry in the right hands. He has an incredible escape skill and once he hits lvl 6 and gets a mask of death he can pretty much jungle nonstop sinec his ulti has such a short cooldown. Once you get the core items on madman (which you will get fast, runed axe, whispering helm, shrunken head) he will be truly formidable and very, very hard to kill.
Dark lady is also a strong carry with the same core items as madman but she is considerably harder to farm with and considering she is a weaker "jungler" and that she lacks the escape tools madman has I'd say madman is the better pick in almost all situations.
I dont hate swift, I just think people that compare early game heroes to hard carries like chronos and sand are missing the bigger picture. Swift is very viable if you need someone to dominate the early - mid game and buy your hard carry some farming time.
@ ExtremeCake re Madman:
Also keep in mind in drafting modes you might not get a full rosters of hard carries to choose from. Hes very usable in those modes.
KnightDavion: I'm surprised that you didn't address TDL's biggest weakness -- Nullfire Blade (or Elec's Purge, but that's char-specific) completely wrecks her. Because her steroid skills are all active, you can just remove the vast majority of her damage. Compared to the other three on the list who still retain passive abilities, she has a very difficult time dealing with it.
I really enjoyed the rest of your analysis though, and am interested to know what you think of Zephyr post-patch and where he fits into the picture.
even in bd mm is almost never picked. in any event, mom on madman should be a bad joke. why in the world would you willingly eat 30% more dmg, which is a -23% ehp loss, on a squishy hero who already has +1xx aspd built in
Thats a really good point about TDL being weak vs. Nullfire.
Zephyr is hard to categorize right now and until im 100% sure they are done tweaking him I will reserve judgement. On the surface zeph seems to have a very strong early mid game AND he has the ability to break games via gust and his new ult. His tornadoes dont scale too well but they are still strong enough to be useful damage in most late game fights.
It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
Zeph has stupid quantities of damage late game too. Mock + Ult + Cyclones is at its peak mid game, but it still hurts late on.
tdl is among the hardest there is, also not enough focus on what makes wraith good namely he can farm AND gank at the same time via ulti... Otherwise it was a good read though, well done.
Pretty well done job. One question though: Is Madman ulti is purge-able? If yes and he is really not a hard carry since his ulti is his jock-up skill. Swiftblade is not that hard of a carry since he doesn't have that great of a team fight presence compare to 6 seconds of the undeniable-holysh!t-gg-bubble of Chronos, pick and roll Magebane, I-will-eat-you-up-no-matter-how-hard-you-whack-me Sandwraith. Madman is somewhat weak in team fight presence to but his ulti definitely makes up for that slack. Shrunken + ulti will break an int hero in seconds thus makes him a far better choice in carry late game than Swiftblade.
Last edited by blackrooster; 03-03-2010 at 10:11 PM.
His ult is purgeable yes but it has a low cool down and he also has evasion via stalk and a great disable so he can play around it 90% of the time. Remember I describe playing madman as the initiator then hide and clean up at the end. I think thats the best way to help in team fights.
Oh cool. But I think in competitive play it's hard to utilize all of Madman skills and he has such a low Hp and low mana pool to spam stalk/stun early game and that's definitely a drawback because all of his early game damage output rely on these 2 skills. Compare to some hybrid ganker/semi-carry like pesti and soulstealer or even Valk, Madman is simply out-level on the overall gameplay, late game can't really make up for that slack. People would rather have them in their team than a hard carry like Madman. I think that's the reason why he is not used that much.
I think one thing to mention is that Sand Wraith's Deserted skill is almost useless in most situations other than 1 on 1 in a jungle. If any thing about Sand Wraith was going to be changed, it would be this skill and some other discrepancies with his nuke not causing heroes who path over the sand to trail it.
And when did deserted go bad ?45 true dmg is bad ? you only need a 400 range free around him so he might be just runing or charging too early or a ranged hero ... ^^^I believe that sand wraith is the best carry ... Just needs a behemots heart and vanguard at the start and after that 1 diffusal blade,butter and its gg ...even if chronos get's her in ult he is almoust in any game on about 1200 to 1900 hp ... with behemot's heart and vang she would be on 3k easy and let's say he did 1.2k in ult and got 300 in return if they are 1v1 sand can easy run away if not he is a goner(and if he is realy fed up she can just get the armor returning dmg ... and kill him easy) ... and she is not hard to farm with at all unless they gang u with perma stun because otherwayes u just go in the woods (with well used dagger) and wait for the next one (for the cd to finish) and go to base ,nothing hard there ... I personaly prefer her on mid line for starter buying chicken if there is no support willing to do so 1 healing slave and the axe giving 32% to non hero units after that u just need to know how to last hit you should get ring of healt until the 5-6 min easy ... and from there its farm farm farm and gang with ult .
LOL-ing again how come swift blade isn't a better carry he just needs a Battle fury ,butter fly ,shield braker,satanic in late game and just press r +choose target and get a hat rick ...And he is not a hard hero to farm with in the start espacialy with hero like plague carrier on his line he is even farming kills ....
Mmkay.he just needs a Battle fury ,butter fly ,shield braker,satanic
i personally think wildsoul is perhaps the scariest late game since his -as increase and his ult make him almost indestructable with lifesteal, and his bear witha base of 2700 hp that can act almost as another hero that can attack almsot as fast and can hold 6 items, pretty much 2 wildsouls buffed with all their late game items= gg
If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.
Just to add: Mercurial becomes ganker from level 7 onwards, and his str gain is fixed with reflect. Having hp helm as core item for him fixes this.
people who gank with spec are just not aware of the metagame.
this is in versions where spec was the top carry of course. now she is not viable
Wild is pretty scary and not just in the jung, he has a VERY strong early game if you put him in the lane. On paper this makes him a hard carry that is strong from the beginning so one might ask where is the downside?
The only real downside to wild is how many items are needed to make him scary. IM no expert at wild to be honest so I wont be able to discuss intricate item build theory that addresses the pros and cons of items on your hero vs items on your bear.
Personally I hate microing the bear and i sort of just use the bear in the early game. Im sure this is wrong but it works for me when i get stuck playing him.
Posting Permissions
