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great guide.
http://www.jackthreads.com/invite/adamwirth
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Thanks, glad you liked it.Originally Posted by enche
Quick update for everyone. I had plans to edit a few of the sections over the weekend - but I got slammed with a lot of schoolwork on an upcoming project. It may be a while before the next update actually comes through.
I've been experimenting a lot with HotBL+Vestments vs. Shaman's Headdress and there seems to be little to no "noticeable" difference in survivability, even if one exists. With that said, I still need to simulate team fights and calculate all the numbers to see whether or not one is "actually" better.
A big thing I do notice though, is that in order to continue building a late game item, you are forced to sell either your bottle or power supply. HotBL+Vestments takes up an extra slot and thus holds you back as the length of the game increases. Not to mention that it's a lot harder to build up to HotBL compared to shaman's headdress.
After I've finished my classes I'll be taking all the theorycraft and formatting it within the guide. Basically, the item and skill build sections will be getting major overhauls.
i don't see the harm in upgrading your mystic vestments to shamans headress and eventually barrier idol if it gets that late. I thought the idea was that hotbl and mystic vestments is the best combo with the llittle money you have at the early/mid phase.Thanks, glad you liked it.
Quick update for everyone. I had plans to edit a few of the sections over the weekend - but I got slammed with a lot of schoolwork on an upcoming project. It may be a while before the next update actually comes through.
I've been experimenting a lot with HotBL+Vestments vs. Shaman's Headdress and there seems to be little to no "noticeable" difference in survivability, even if one exists. With that said, I still need to simulate team fights and calculate all the numbers to see whether or not one is "actually" better.
A big thing I do notice though, is that in order to continue building a late game item, you are forced to sell either your bottle or power supply. HotBL+Vestments takes up an extra slot and thus holds you back as the length of the game increases. Not to mention that it's a lot harder to build up to HotBL compared to shaman's headdress.
After I've finished my classes I'll be taking all the theorycraft and formatting it within the guide. Basically, the item and skill build sections will be getting major overhauls.
Quite incorrect. It's a lot easier to buy Headdress than it is to buy HotBL. Not to mention that HotBL+Vestments is well, more expensive.
If you're up for a semi-long read then this post outlines details on the two builds. http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=1025228&postcount=38
Yes, you could upgrade and get them both, but headdress offers no health or mana. I'm not saying it's bad to have both late game, I just prefer to buy other items. If you're in a game where you will probably buy barrier idol, I honestly think it's best to skip HotBL altogether and just get headdress.
Has anyone tried getting a rank each of rot and hook then getting cadaver armor whenever possible? I've seen arguments that it allows your str to get very inflated early game but I don't see how you're, well, killing people with low ranks of rot.
One thing to consider, and this may be sort of whacky, but can't the lifetube from HoTBL also be used for shaman's headress (in place of the two trinkets)?Thanks, glad you liked it.
Quick update for everyone. I had plans to edit a few of the sections over the weekend - but I got slammed with a lot of schoolwork on an upcoming project. It may be a while before the next update actually comes through.
I've been experimenting a lot with HotBL+Vestments vs. Shaman's Headdress and there seems to be little to no "noticeable" difference in survivability, even if one exists. With that said, I still need to simulate team fights and calculate all the numbers to see whether or not one is "actually" better.
A big thing I do notice though, is that in order to continue building a late game item, you are forced to sell either your bottle or power supply. HotBL+Vestments takes up an extra slot and thus holds you back as the length of the game increases. Not to mention that it's a lot harder to build up to HotBL compared to shaman's headdress.
After I've finished my classes I'll be taking all the theorycraft and formatting it within the guide. Basically, the item and skill build sections will be getting major overhauls.
If you go for a behemoth's heart after hotbl (not a terrible idea), you could actually break apart the hotbl and use the beastheart for the heart, and hang onto the lifetube if you feel like turning mystic vestments into shaman's. It builds into two items that are great for you. HotBl is arguably at it's strongest early game so it may be an interesting course to try.
level 2 rot is more than enough early game
I've heard it before, and it's a great idea if you want to clear an inventory slot without "losing" anything.
While behemoth's heart is a very good item for Devourer, I actually don't buy it that often. SotM is generally the first thing I rush for once I've got my core build down. And as you know, SotM has a ton of parts, all of which boost stats that you need. Having to waste 2 inventory slots on HotBL+Vestments or even Headdress+Beastheart makes it hard to utilize the "buildup" of staff. Making you essentially "sit on" 3k gold worth of items.
While I don't disagree there, I have mixed feelings about whether or not it's worth it to take the point away from hook and put it into cadaver. The earlier you get cadaver, the weaker you will be.
Devourer can be so devastating due to each rank of his hook/rot beefing him up so much. By taking cadaver early you are effectively throwing that out the window, and delaying your "full power" to a level later. As you all know, Devourer loses effectiveness the higher level everyone else gets, so it's hard to really say whether or not "one level" of cadaver is really worth it.
I've been pretty busy with school so I haven't had time to really playtest different builds. Hopefully I can get at least a small update before GDC, but no promises on that.
Big update, yay~
Sorry it took so long, school has had me swamped for a while. There's still more stuff I'd like to tweak with the item section regarding all the headdress vs hotbl crap, but I won't work on any of that until after I get back from GDC.
EDIT:v2.4
-Minor edits to the text within the "Skill Builds" section
-Major overhaul to the "Items" section. The core build has changed!
-"Strategy" section split! The new sections are "Strategy" and "Proper Skill Usage".
-Added a "late game" subsection to the "Strategy" section. (Seems I actually forgot to add that in...oops?)
-Added an actual subsection to the "Strategy" section for laning partners and enemies to avoid. (Subsection is called "Laning Partners and Enemies to Avoid")
-Text within "Laning Partners and Enemies to Avoid" subsection tweaked.
-New section added! "FAQ's and Debates!"
-"Future Plans" section updated!
Another version released. It was just a few simple/small changes.
v2.5
-Minor edits to the text within the "Skills" section. (An important note about Devourer's ult was added.)
-Corrected the total gold value for "Core Build 2" within the "Items" section.
-Removed a couple placeholder stubs that I forgot to remove.
Last edited by Delfofthebla; 03-06-2010 at 07:38 AM.
Sorry if I'm a bit Off-Topic but what is the mod you use for the "HP&Mana Bar over the hero"?
Here's a Devo game with a pkey as a core item. If you're going with the chaser build, you should really have a pkey to either set up ganks better or be sure they can't escape.
30701952
Check the FAQ section at the end of the guide.
Cool, thanks for the replay. I just got back from GDC so I haven't been able to check it out yet. I'll give it a look later.
Good guide.
Something that was said in the guide, and not change too long ago was dev's decay.
The slow effect lasts for 2 seconds after they leave the decay radius.
For w/e reason I see alot of devs running away keeping decay on killing themselves, and taking on about 300-400 damage they shouldn't.
I understand doing this to denie yourself, or cause damage if they are stupid enough to follow and you got the hp, but most of the time you could avoid death all together if you didn't do so much damage to yourself.
Yeah I'll actually tap it on and off while I'm running away to ensure they're kept slowed while I'm kept alive, it helps a ton.
Ok I finally scrounged up the motivation to watch the replay. First off I'd like to thank you for submitting this here. I don't get to see much devourer play from anyone other than the noobs who random him and refuse to swap with me.
I loved this game. I found it amazing that it went exactly how most of mine go.
1. Elitist Noob flames you for picking Devourer, or just in general cries about how your team sucks.
2. Solo mid, rape the crap out of everything and everyone while pulling off hilarious ganks.
3. Become so farmed and fed that you can take on the entire team by yourself.
4. Make comment to the noob who flamed you, he either doesn't reply, or bashes the other team.
5. Farm the enemies fountain.
6. Win the game.
The replay really showcased exactly why I love Devourer. He's the type of hero that has an unlimited amount of potential. If you put a devourer with a group of random people near his skill level, he can create one of the most absurd and entertaining games ever. Devourer can survive and kill in the most ridiculous situations if you know what you are doing, and people will start to fear you for it.
I literally win half of my games because I scare the crap out of the enemy team. Fear becomes one of your abilities, and it will cause them to make bad judgments. The one's that don't hide in fear will charge in expecting their team to follow. They die, and then the team is thrown into disarray from all the flaming; allowing you to rape even harder than you did before. This effect snowballs until you're sitting with 15+ kills farming their fountain as they try and run around like idiots attempting to dodge your hooks.
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There were some great moments within that game, and you played Devourer really well. While your skillbuild and items weren't what I usually go for, you played him very similar to how I play him. It was interesting to watch, and it was nice to see how Devourer played with that particular skill/item build.
I made a note every time I noticed Portal key effecting your gameplay at all.
1. You caught 1 hero that would have died anyways. (You didn't get the kill, but you got the strength boost, so that's something.)
2. You rambo'd and got yourself killed once. (I really doubt you woulda done this if you didn't have portal key)
3. You created 1 major teamfight initiation that otherwise wouldn't have happened.
4. You got one kill that you really didn't need to be so dramatic with. (I titled it a "lulz kill".)
5. And finally, you completed 2 killsteals when otherwise you would have been too far away to get.
Overall, I can't say it really made me want to promote portal key. On the contrary, it actually backed up my belief that it's really not worth it.
Devourer has to farm at least 3600 to 4100 gold (not including homecoming stones, which you SHOULD be buying constantly) before he can really consider portal key as a possible purchase. Farming that gold takes a while, and if you die more than twice in the early-midgame phase, it could take a LONG time to see that gold farmed. By the time you have enough gold to finish your core and actually buy a portal key, it's already well into the late game phase; where you can't afford to blink into 5 heroes, or when you can't see the team (preventing you from doing any real initiation).
So, in the end the only thing portal key assisted you in doing is stacking your stats within a game that was essentially already over. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.
EDIT: Oh yeah, just a heads up. I'll be adding your replay within the replay section on my next guide update.
Last edited by Delfofthebla; 03-18-2010 at 12:03 AM.
Decay is better at lvl 1, at least if u decide to check rune spawn in the start of the game
I actually had edited the guide to take a "Pick whatever you want" type of stance there, but I must have lost it at some point; so thanks for catching that. :P
While I rarely run into a situation where I -regret- picking hook at level one; I won't deny that Decay is better for checking the first rune. Sometimes level 1 hook can get you FB, and sometimes it doesn't. People will have their own preference for the matter, so I decided to leave it up to them.
(Edited this into the guide, but I'll probably outline the reasoning more in the next update)
I just want to mention another aspect of HoTBL that you're missing... you can destruct it.
Headdress can be made with lifetube + vestments + helm. Behemoth's heart can be made with the beastheart.
So if you make HoTBL and mystic vestments, you are not actually wasting an inventory slot. The correct thing to do is buy mystic vestments, lifetube, beastheart, sheild, helm, break HotBL and headdress will instantly make. Sell sheild. Save up for axe of malphi and recipe.
So with the assumption that you are going with just boots, bottle and TP, you have more than plenty of room to hold the 3 items necassary to build up to the ultimate devourer build (behemoth's heart + barrier idol)
Last edited by bumbly; 03-18-2010 at 05:57 PM.
I also want to mention that you forgot to note two VERY important things in the early cadaver armor build.
Devourer does not get STR if he gets the kill, and devourer gains STR if he dies (even if you rot yourself to death). If you get early cadaver armor it is generally best to allow your teammate to get all the kills possible, especially if you are on the way to a behemoth's heart.
A lot of devourer players don't realize that when their HP gets low, self-denying or auto-attacking till you die actually can do more for you than going to the fountain and healing then going back out.
If you want to be useful late game, dying as devourer can actually be a viable tactic if you do it intelligently, and being selfless as devourer is often as important as being a selfish carry player.
First off, I'm delighted you actually decided to respond to that. I was somewhat curious as to if you were ever going to see it.
I actually did mention disassembling HotBL, but not within the main guide. I'll add the details into it later. I didn't really test the build around splitting the helm up and making the two items, as BH isn't one of my preferred late game items, and my testing was centered around a pure "HotBL vs Headdress" playstyle. In pubs you can get away with SotM over BH, and usually have more "fun" in doing so. Due to this, BH never actually crossed my mind during the HotBL build testing.
The whole thing just seems like a huge waste of time/gold. Sure, you get the small benefit of HotBL over just Headdress for a short time, but you're going to build headdress anyways and sell off part of helm.
You put way too much thought into the idea of killing yourself. Devourer is a hero that can turn the tide of battle so easily by just being there. In situations where you have the chance to not die, you should take that chance and...not die. Do you understand how incredibly difficult it is to actually suicide in a situation where 3+ heroes are focusing you down? It can be downright impossible in most situations, and grows harder as the game goes on.
Don't get me wrong, I know the importance of suicide. If I know my death is imminent, I will attempt to kill myself. In doing so, I gain a bit of strength, I prevent the enemy from getting some gold/XP, but I'm still dead. During a game, I'm usually the highest level on the team too, so I'm going to be dead for a while. Dying is not beneficial. The strength you gain is but a mere perk you gain out of a situation where you were you were already going to die.
Putting that all aside for a second, do you seriously not think you gain strength from getting the kill? Can you not read the skill description? I mean, I don't like to make direct attacks on people, but do people seriously trust information that you provide them? Your statement is 100% false. You do gain strength from a kill. You gain gold too.
Let's recap.
- When your hero dies, you lose gold. No matter how it happens, your death = gold loss.
- You're telling people to not last hit heroes (No hero kill gold)
- HotBL has very expensive components. Just one or two deaths early on will delay your progress for a good 10 minutes.
- You(bumbly) advocate this expensive build due to it's minimal benefits vs. Headdress. You then recycle the more expensive items from HotBL to build...headdress.
So I'm a little lost here. How do you even manage to build your core in one game? You don't kill heroes, you kill yourself in situations you could have lived in, and you still manage to farm the gold for each piece of HotBL? How late is it when you normally have this item?
I don't feel like mathcrafting all the gold used/wasted/spent, but I might sometime later. Your logic seems a bit flawed in areas, and I don't really understand how you manage to make any of it work within a real game.
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