EDIT: New patch! Pebbles is partially fixed!
Originally Posted by Khaos`
See below for the original post:
Warcraft 3 limited DotA in so many ways, and things aren't optimized in DotA because the Warcraft 3 engine wasn't made with DotA in mind.
But with HoN, we can do things that couldn't be done in DotA, and can make changes for the better, without actually changing HoN too much from DotA.
Think about this. What was the person who designed Tiny thinking when he made Toss? It was probably something like, "He should have the ability to throw a hero! That would be cool!"
But alas, Warcraft 3 only allowed for a single target when using spells, so you could only choose where to toss, or what to toss. The designer figured where you were tossing the unit was more important, and thus, the unit that is actually tossed is arbitrarily picked at random around Tiny.
It still made for a cool ability, but now with the HoN engine, we can redesign the ability, using the original concept. We now have a way to choose what we toss, and where we toss it.
My Chuck remake seems small, but it actually really is big. It also makes Chuck much better. In my opinion, this makes up for the removal of the "double damage avalanche" that Tiny has in DotA. The range on Chuck will still probably have to be decreased if this is implemented.
Old Ability: Chuck
Pebbles throws a nearby unit to target location, damaging it and all enemies in an area around where it lands.
Target Unit - All Units
Mana cost: 120
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Deals 75/150/225/300 Magic damage to enemy units in radius. Buildings recieve 33% damage. Deals 12/30/45/60 Magic damage to thrown unit.How it works:New Ability: Catapult
Pebbles grapples target unit and immobilizes it for up to one second. Pebbles can then throw the grappled unit to target location, damaging it and all enemies in an area around where it lands.
Target Unit - All Units
Range: 128 (Melee)
Target Position - Enemy Units
Mana cost: 120
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Deals 75/150/225/300 Magic damage to enemy units in landing radius. Buildings recieve 33% damage. Deals 12/30/45/60 Magic damage to thrown unit.
How this ability works is simple. When you use Catapult, you will have a single target cursor. When you select a unit, Pebbles will walk to that unit and grapple it. After successfully grabbing it, 120 mana will be used and the ability will enter cooldown.
Your cursor will then automatically be changed into an AOE cursor, allowing you to select an area (any area) around Pebbles to throw your prey. If you don't throw the target, Pebbles will release the unit after grappling it for one second.
This ability now has no "random" element to it. It is controlled entirely by the player and you will never get that "unlucky creep toss" that you currently get with Pebbles Chuck.
While grappling a unit, Pebbles cannot move, attack, use items, or use Stalgamites without letting go of the grappled unit. The only action he can make is throwing the unit to a selected location. The grapple is thus "channeling", and can be interrupted by silencing or stunning Pebbles. However, fast players will be able to quickly throw the unit after grabbing it, making silence or stuns unlikely to interrupt the process.
Units grappled by Pebbles will be immobilized and revealed to Pebbles, but that is all. They will be able to attack and cast spells as normal. This is similar to the effect of Ensnare in regular DotA. This has further synergy with Stalgamites, because if you stun a unit before grappling it, there is less chance they will be able to break free of your grip with a stun, or something like Courageous Leap.
If a Pebbles is ordered to toss a unit outside of the range of Catapult, the unit will be tossed the maximum distance in the selected direction. This is similar to how Magebane's Flash currently works. This is more powerful than the current Chuck because you are not forced to throw the target at a specific unit, hence the reduced range.
If anything in this post is unclear, please feel free to post in the thread asking for clarification. Thank you for reading this!
Last edited by Khaos`; 09-09-2009 at 08:10 PM.
Still no classic Avalanche-Toss combo .
So does this mean you have to shift-queue it for optimal results? Because 1 second isn't that much time to select a hero target (plus some heroes are annoying to click on, especially if they move quite fast). Not to mention you only get the AoE targetting cursor after acquiring a unit, which means you theoretically only have about ~0.7 seconds to target the toss location and left-click (due to human reaction time)
Unless you are already standing right next to the unit when you use Catapult, one second is actually a painfully long time to decide where to toss a unit. As per the current Chuck, in order to toss properly, you usually only have a window of time that is smaller than a second because the ability is disabled while no unit is in range. And then you can't even click anywhere on the screen. You have to click on a specific unit. You won't have to do that with Catapult.
I imagine good players will actually have to wait on using the Catapult throw, just to maximize the "ensnaring" effect.
If I prove to be wrong, the grapple effect (in addition to the current Pebbles) is weak enough that it could easily be extended to 1.5 or even 2 seconds.
Last edited by KhaosKreator; 08-02-2009 at 12:00 PM.
Technically this could be implemented, especially since the key bindings allow for more skills. I'd just imagine that there would be a lot of work to add to get the animation to which the hero is being grappled. As well, is the target being grappled immune to all damage during that time? to AoE? to melee/ranged attacks? I can imagine some of the better players trying to maximize its hold when tossing to get an extra second to bash an enemy. Also, I can imagine a lot of frustration for some Pebbles player trying to instantly get the toss of an ally hero away from enemy heroes.
Lawl, I'm catapulting a catapult!
Last edited by cernun; 08-02-2009 at 01:10 PM.
The new "Catapult" also has balance issues. You would be able to throw people into your own tower, base, and well/fountain.
Also the time that it would take S2 to make a grapple animation for something as trivial as this is ridiculous. The costs significantly outweigh the benefits.
As far as I know, HoN's Chuck is coded the same way.
Being able to choose a target to toss is a fair compromise for losing the Ava + Toss combo in my opinion.
A problem - Not requiring Catapult to target a unit at the end-point location is that it would allow Pebble to trap a unit within trees/on a hill. I don't know of a counter-measure to prevent this from happening other than requiring that Chuck/Catapult targets a end-point unit.
A suggestion - Why not have the cursor automatically change to AoE once the Catapult target is "grabbed." If moving/attacking/casting spells is going to break anyways and the only option is to click Catapult again to toss the unit, why not have that action be selected for you as soon as possible?
All in all, I don't remember the DotA Tiny having a change in a long time, and this is one tweak I'd love to see in HoN.
Actually, the reason toss is the way it is is to balance it = /
The randomness factor is specifically to make it require a creep clear in able it reliably.
Your proposed chance would actually make it a nerf for good Tiny/Pebbles players, as you'd only be able to throw a unit at another enemy unit, and not an allied (no throwing into your own tower, etc).
+1Originally Posted by Karmashock
Very good point! This would also serve to make his nuke more effective early game and less effective late game (which I don't see a problem with).
According to the OP, you would have to press the button again. I proposed that the cursor be set to change automatically, as you really don't have much option other than to toss the unit anyways.Originally Posted by ElementUser
Last edited by Ice_Phoenix; 08-02-2009 at 06:30 PM.
Also, if you look at his skill description for catapult:
Target Position - Enemy Units
BEFORE WE JUMP ONTO CONCLUSIONS, THE AVALANCE-TOSS COMBO DOES WORK on HoN!!
(I'm sorry if someone else already has written this, I haven't read the whole topic)
This should not be implemented at all! The only reason I love Pebbles (aka Tiny) is because I can 1 hit KO Defiler (aka Krobelus) before/during a team fight!
Don't remove it pwease, Pebbles is fine the way he is - really.
(P.S. I'm an experienced Pebbles player, both on HoN and DotA)
Last edited by Zehbear; 09-08-2009 at 01:26 PM.
I'm glad they removed the "random" element of Chuck, so you can now have much more control over who you are tossing. This is at the heart of what I wanted to do in my original change, so I can settle with the change they made instead.
However, I'm disappointed that you still can only toss units to other units, and I still believe that should be changed. There's no reason for it. Toss originally targeted the ground and not units, and was changed in DotA due to engine limitations. (It was possible to get heroes stuck) This limitation does not exist in HoN, which is why heroes like Devourer and Andromeda are allowed to use Portal Key.
This is why Pebbles Chuck should work like Tiny's original Toss.
the whole damage type system needs to be made more logical.
Pebbles should do NO magical damage of any kind. He hits things with rocks.
ROCKS! Rocks are not magical damage... they are physical = Physical damage.
Now if I nuke people with fireballs or something then fine... magical fireball... but rocks?... no. Physical damage. I'm starting a thread on this because it's driving me slowly insane.
Oh I see, so after grabbing a unit the catapult targetting AoE cursor comes up immediately? I thought you had to press the button again (because you said "If you select the Catapult ability again while grappling a unit").
All this really does is make toss "idiotproof". It also takes away one element of what makes it so dangerous: throwing a hero onto itself and dealing massive damage as a result. I'm against this.
"Target Position" means that you select a position, not a unit.
"Enemy Units" means that it damages enemy units.
It's weird terminology, but it's what HoN uses, so I figured I would use it.
1. You can toss a unit to "unpathable" terrain. Yes, but can't you do the same with Portal Key and Whirlpool, or Portal Key and Guttural Hook? I was under the impression that if a unit is trapped on high ground, they can just walk downhill, and never be "trapped." If I am wrong, then the programmers would just have to make it so you cannot toss a unit to a trapped location (This is how Vacuum currently works in DotA.) As for tossing a unit into trees, when the unit lands, it destroys all trees surrounding it, and a path to walk out could be formed as well, if they get tossed in a heavily wooded area.
2. You can toss heros into towers and your Tarpit. Exactly! Only to do so now, you'll have to be a lot closer to them, as the grapple is melee range. The current Chuck has twice the "grabbing" range. In addition, the throwing range on Catapult is much less then Chuck and can be further reduced, because it is indeed much more powerful than the current Chuck. Remember, this has the downside of no-longer "homing" your throw on a target, making it easier for other heroes to avoid the damage. This adds even more skill to Pebbles because now you have to throw your grappled unit ahead of the heroes you want to hit with it.
This is a great idea and I fully endorse it. So Catapult will have a single target cursor, and then once it grabs the unit, you will lose 120 mana, it will enter cooldown, and then your cursor will automatically be changed to the AOE cursor for up to one second. Brilliant.Originally Posted by Ice Phoenix
Last edited by KhaosKreator; 08-02-2009 at 08:54 PM.