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Honestly, since the new frostbrand/burn, nullfire is quite simply, a counter item for jera/malphas. i almost never see it in a game unless its on valk, who goes frostbrand nowadays anyway.
the slow it offers is good, but its more expensive then frostbrand (for now atleast), it has a cooldown, and has limted charges. it also gives little suriviabilty, which is fine, but makes it pale in comparison.
as far as buffs go, you could go a few ways
1. lower recipie cost. this would make it more comprable to frostbrand.
2. make purge not have limited charges. while 8(16) charges is a good amount, you still wanna conserve for only when you really need it, plus would make it a good counter to debuffs like rupture and swarm.
3. buff the mana burn to something like either
A. 48-64
or you can go % based so it works as a good coutner to intel heros
b. 3-4% of max mana (numbers here could change)
4. better stats gain, maybe 30-35 agi/10-14 intel
basically, its an obsolete item, that needs a solid buff to make it useable. porting in the image heros wont help, because they will just choose frostbrand over nullfire all the same.
You have a point but Frostburn is getting a rework next patch. Depending on what is done to it, Nullfire may become more useful again.
Also, Frostburn does not counter this like Protective Charm, Malphas, Hammer's Ult, etc., so Nullfire still has many uses, even if the other aspects of it are inferior.
Originally Posted by senzation54
This. Its still an extremely useful item vs. certain lineups. The thing is it changed from straight core on many heroes to simply situational. It doesnt need any changes - it as just become situational. Like Winglier said, what does need changes is Frostburn - it offers way to much for its cost.
EDIT: S2 could always remove the slow effect when you cast Purge on friendlies ^^. EDIT2: Nvm, I stand correct.
Last edited by Sahyduna; 01-04-2010 at 05:08 PM.
I think a step in the right direction, somewhat in line with the Frostburn changes, would be making it slightly more of a generic item rather than completely unuseable by str/int.
ie change the components to 1 Major totem + Fleetfeet + 1 Dancing Blade, 1,000g recipe(I, II).
6/9 str/int
22/26 agi
No limit on the purge charges, but a higher base cooldown. Buying recipe II increases mana burned and reduces purge cooldown.
BTW it doesn't slow allies when you debuff them.
Last edited by TreeHorse; 01-04-2010 at 06:23 PM.
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i think it's still an incredible item, but there are a few problems
1. frostburn offers too many stats. in nullfire, you pay 450 gold for the component 6 int piece. for frostburn, you get 5 to all stats for a mere 100 extra gold. this has an easy solution: change the int-piece to a major totem, or reduce null's recipe cost
2. the purge does not remove many magic effects from allies, like stuns
3. the purge does not destroy puzzlebox minions. puzzlebox is a majorly imbalanced item: the minions have a lot of health and armour, drain ridiculous amounts of mana, and the worst part is that you're punished for killing one of them by a 600 true-dmg feedback. pbox could be brought in check with a few nerfs, but i'd like to see buffs to nullfire instead
4. why does it have charges? increase the cooldown, remove the charges, there ya go
5. maybe this is just me but i don't like how it's primarily an agi item. it'd be neat to have a recipe change to 2 broadswords, a major totem and a recipe cost for 36 dmg, 5 to all stats and the aforementioned changes
Last edited by tiffany91; 01-04-2010 at 05:50 PM.
There are a few problems with this thread:
1. Comparing it to frostburn, an item that is definitely recieving a nerf. Last I heard there are 9 item changes, and as such with a patch looming on the horizon comparing it to an item that is definitely being changed is bad.
2. It assumes that the purge effect, which is very effective against many people, is too limiting with 8 charges. Yet alot of the time when you use it it is to remove a powerful debuff. The number of heroes who this is effective against is very large, you can purge the dmg buff off of hammer/dark lady, and I think you can purge a number of skills such as succubus's etc aswell. Who wouldn't want to purge the 'dust' or pesti's ulti off you or your teams invis hero.
3. It assumes that the damage it deals is insignificant, while it actually burns mana and as such provides 'more' of a disable than the slow of frostburn. Mana burn is very effective when used against the right targets.
4. It assumes that the item needs survivability, when that is totally not what the item is geared towards. I personally think its a bad idea to give every 'good' dps item survivability aswell. It simply buffs up the carries stupidly, and as many complain in other threads, we don't want the carries getting easily buffed while increasing their dps
Why are so many people stupid?
null fire is still an amazing item the debuff removal alone makes it worth buying in some situations. Now that it can be upgraded to get another 8 charges i does not need a change.
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This. Mana Burn is a good orb too.
purge is a better slow and effect than frostburn's slow. it also hard counters some heroes' critical abilities. having charges just highlights this fact and doesn't encourage you to waste them.
the recipe cost though is directly related to the "value" of renewed charges you get. the stat gains are minimal but purge is refreshed for a round.
i think to properly balance the item to the effect of encouraging mid-game clashes, you should give the item a better lategame. it used to be mandatory because it was a part of manta. with a lot of diffusals idling on your dpsers, midgame gank and fighting power is increased.
so really you can buff this item, or make it more used, by replacing the simple recipe upgrade with some higher item upgrade. although this will have the effect of making carries more powerful yet again, when everyone picks the sane number of carries (ie at least 2 or 3) it isn't a big problem.
its situational in the same way that nullstone was/is. it counters a select group of heros, and is pretty much outclassed by frostbrand in any other situation.
i know frostbrand is getting a nerf, but i really doubt its gonna be severe enough to make it a worse item then nullfire.
nullfire provides a slight boost in dps, but it really isnt worth almost 4k gold (for the upgraded version). in terms of dps, its effectiveness is almost nil at late game. yes, you get it for the purge, but frostbrand is a much much better item.
you guys really think that its ok the way it is? unless frostbrand is nerfed to pretty much SnY standards, id still pick it over nullfire because the slow has no cooldown, and it provides much needed stats for squishy carries.
i dont think nullfire should give hp stats or anything, but its dps or utility does need to increase, as at the moment its a pretty useless item unless your countering
its an expensive counter item, which counters heros that are always either banned or in the case of hellbringer ban/picked.
i know it counters jeraziah, but hes NEVER seen in comp play, and hellbringer is banned fairly often. honestly, when was the last time you guys saw it in a serious game?
Edit: the manaburn is pretty much useless after 30 mins into the game. it rarely (if ever) makes a difference at all.
compare manaburn to any other orb type effect, like deso or frostburn (even if its nerfed), and its a suppar effect. granted its no longer an orb, and stack with everything, its still almost never seen.
Last edited by LegoPirate; 01-04-2010 at 06:53 PM.
just cause an item isn't used competitively doesn't mean its bad.
The last time i saw ring of sorcery in competitive Dota was a LOOONG time ago
Why are so many people stupid?
good thing its not dota.
the game is balanced around comp play, so if an item isnt used in that facet, it should get a buff to make it viable.
Under that assumption we really need to buff items such as doom bringer, and other items not used competitively that are actually perfectly fine.
Maybe we should wait for frostburn to be nerfed like it will, after which it might be competitively viable to pick nullfire on certain carry heroes
Why are so many people stupid?
as a situational item it has its uses, but i don't see a reason to not change things when it can make things better. more widespread nullfire usage will make things more interesting than building geometers or frostburn every single game.
other then doom bringer, which is obviously a justforfun item, what items would those be?
you want a list?
harkons blade
tablet of command
abyssal skull
Runed Axe (see's fairly little competitive play, carries use dps items that help them not push a lane).
Hellflower (about the same usage as nullfire from what i've seen of high tier games).
Ghost Marchers (in a purely competitive environment no reason not to go steam boots).
Icon of the Goddess
Nullstone (this one does need a bit of a buff, but not much)
Codex (no one uses this competitively, don't have the burst nukers who can really make the most of it when compared to other more useful items)
Brutalizer (no one would ever get this)
Restoration Stone (One maybe two heroes, if that would ever get this)
Why are so many people stupid?
how about this:
make it so that when all the charges are exhausted it gives +12 extra agility... that way it becomes better when the charges are consumed
harkons is a situational item only found on puppet
tablet sees use to counter tempest/other channeling heroes
abyssal skull is used all the time on teams with a melee carry, very strong aura
runed axe has gotten much theorycrafting, but it is superior on heroes with blinks or movement speed boost spells just because it allows them to farm like crazy
hellflower is just a fail item
support heroes who don't get grieves gets ENHANCED marchers(wtf are ghost marchers?)
Icon is found on bloodstone rush heroes
Nullstone does counter certain line stuns well, situational item
Codex is a joke item
Brutalizer is crap
Refresher sees use based on lineup
All in all, the items are either fail items in their idea or are just fine.
Try again.
Wait, you want it to give 34 agility at level 1? That is more agility than the item worth(34 agility is worth ~3400, item is 3300).how about this:
make it so that when all the charges are exhausted it gives +12 extra agility... that way it becomes better when the charges are consumed
I agree with a buff on this item, and the best one I can think of is to make it replenish 100% of the mana it steals, that would not be overpowered like magebane was because this item is gotten well into mid-game, even if you rush it, you can manage a 17-25 minute one at best, also, none of the components can be bought from side shop.
Another way would be to make purge, ON TOP OF purging every buff on enemies and debuff on allies(that are not un-removable like rupture), to also slow attack speed(it makes sense, if they can't move, they shouldnt be able to attack fast)
Last edited by rpg711; 01-04-2010 at 08:20 PM.
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How about this.. you can buy the Recipe even after Nullfire is already lvl2, and it will replenish the charges (and nothing else). Probably will cost a bit less then.
rpg711: OP was ranting about Nullfire being a situational Item.
Same as Tablet is, so it's a very good comparison actually;
If not to counter Tempest, it sees almost no play at all.
Harkons is just bad, not even found on Puppet.
Abyssal Skull is never build, because Whispering Helm is almost always better and Support got other Stuff to buy.
Runed Axe is actually used, yes.
Hellflower "is a fail Item", now why? Seems like a niche Item for Int Carries / extremely Mana Dependant other Carries (Madman), yet is never seen
They are called Ghost Marchers now, and NO NO NO. Steamboots are the way to go.
And how many SacStone Rush heroes do you still see? It's like.. Defiler. If she goes for it.
Nullstone is almost never bought
Codex.. well, probably.
Brutalizer: Yes it is - your point?
Refresher is used on Tempest, Hellbringer, KotF. Never seen it on anyone else.
So one asks: "Which Items are never used competitively?" and Real_Wolf provides a list,
and you go ahead and say "Well yes it isn't used, but it sucks!". And? That was the point of the List Oo
That's like asking "Which Hero needs a rework to get play on competitive level" and someone says "Zephyr",
and you go and say "No he doesn't need a rework, he just sucks". Yeah, right.. he does, that was my point.
Last edited by Vulpes; 01-04-2010 at 08:23 PM.
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