Thread: [4.0] Pebbles

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  1. #1
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    [4.0] Pebbles

    Ever since the big nerf to nuke heroes, I believe pebbles lost his edge, big time.
    I see absolutely no reason as to why anyone would pick pebbles as an initiator over other heroes such as magmus/moraxus/deadwood...

    As you know, pebbles' laning phase is quite exceptional which is defined by the following :
    - Very weak armor , therefore easily harassable physically : ranged heroes autoattacks/ deadlift w ...
    - Very strong attack damage : 70-71 damage with the proper item build
    - Average nuking capacities compared to other heroes
    - Strong vs some melee picks
    - Good initiation
    - Cannot kill anyone in the midlane without tossing hero into the tower and stunning afterwards ( which is a really difficult trick to pull against ranged heroes ) ( combo doesn't kill anyone anymore). Can kill certain melee heroes after autoattack exchange bait trick. ( again, high skills to pull that out)
    - Farm: average outside of laning phase, good during laning phase vs easy opponent ( melees without long range nukes)
    - Scales averagely into the late game



    In summary, pebbles is a very high risk low reward kind of heroes which is a shame, since I believe playing pebbles is an art itself, and art should be rewarded at the hands of good players. You need to reward skill in moba, which in the current meta is not the case. Easy to use heroes output higher damage compared to hard to use heroes.

    My solution :
    Revert the old combo damage output prior to the nerf. Considering your new hero pool and the way this game is heading, Pebbles' high damage output could make the hero viable again. Pebbles is one of my favorite heroes, but I can't play the hero efficiently in my bracket because it provides absolutely nothing to my team other than a stun, and considering the popularity of ranged heroes now on midlane, Pebbles will lose without an outside intervention.
    Last edited by Sympho; 01-24-2017 at 12:58 AM.

    Fixed by SmurfinBird. Thank you

  2. #2
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    Approved.

    I think pebbles could easily return to the meta with the addition of a few new items. Echo sabre/aghs in dota help him scale through mid/late game but here he really does peak mid game and taper off later on because of item slot issues/mediocre scaling. You might as well pick hammerstorm if you're looking for a hard hitting melee carry later on.

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by `blackbird` View Post
    Approved.

    I think pebbles could easily return to the meta with the addition of a few new items. Echo sabre/aghs in dota help him scale through mid/late game but here he really does peak mid game and taper off later on because of item slot issues/mediocre scaling. You might as well pick hammerstorm if you're looking for a hard hitting melee carry later on.
    He used to peak really well in the midgame. Not anymore. The only scenario where pebbles actually snowballs these days is when you completely rape your opponent and get ab 8-9 minutes pk. His damage is completely nullified by a vestment because the output he does with the combo ( chuck + toss) isn't enough anymore

    Fixed by SmurfinBird. Thank you

  4. #4
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    Pebbles
    - Chuck will now deal the proper amount of bonus damage to the Chucked unit based on the level of Enlarge.
    Might have an impact.

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alelor View Post
    Might have an impact.
    It reaches peak at level 16. Let's be honest here, a pebbles at level 16 is probably in the late mid game or snowballing the game really hard. The extra nuke damage is needed early on to compensate for pebbles atrocious laning phase vs the most played mid heroes in the pool at the current meta.

    Fixed by SmurfinBird. Thank you

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    I agree with the author of this thread. There are way better picks in midlane these days. Why would u pick a pebbles over an Adrenaline who can kill opponents easier while offering a better spell kit with dashes, mana regeneration and an almost guaranteed kill with his ultimate. How do you wanna lane against heroes like Bombadier, Parallax? Even support heroes like demented shaman can easily beat him in lane with permanent harass. Even if u manage to get a 9-10 minute pk you have a very tight window of 5-8 minutes to snowball until the enemy carry can safely farm jungle and build so much hp or magic armor to survive ganks.

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    I personally thought he was a hold-over of old dota mechanics and was in need of a re-addressing (just look at silencer, he was remade multiple times in both hon and dota). He's just... a nuker with a bit more damage than others but his ult is passive. Chuck and multichuck could be interesting spells, but... they just get used for 1k magic damage combo. The big, slow, heavy hitter aspect of the ult isn't strong enough and is ignored in favour of the 1k magic damage. I don't think '1k magic damage + stun guy' is something that is distinct or interesting, but of course some others do.
    I am told that Lord Salforis Q spell is latin for A Most Certain Death (roughly). They should swap the name of his ult and q so his blast that heals people and himself is called The Undying and his high damage no heal ult is called A Most Certain Death. Doesn't that make sense?

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    Pebbles is picked nearly every game in comp SEA that I've seen. I think the big difference is that in NA/EU players want to be able to solo kill enemies all the time, while in SEA he's seen as a very strong initiator who can set up or clean up kills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MnKyWrNcH View Post
    Pebbles is picked nearly every game in comp SEA that I've seen. I think the big difference is that in NA/EU players want to be able to solo kill enemies all the time, while in SEA he's seen as a very strong initiator who can set up or clean up kills.
    From what I've seen, it's because SEA is extremely good at using pebbles' disrupting/displacing capabilities to make him stay relevant at every stages of the game. The fearsome pebbles@staff/carry@cleaver NA/EU discovered during last year's world finals is the prime example of this.
    Now, I don't know how popular pebbles is in thai TMM. That could be a very relevant thing to know. A lot of heroes are popular in competitive but not tmm, not due to mechanical exigence like ophelia, but simply because they require smooth and coherent teamplay, such as tundra or fayde (who was already popular before her buff and is now apparently regarded as a must-pick for eNeo, according to Zlapped).

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  10. #10
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    They could improve his SOTM allowing him to be able to target towers/gadgets/wards, or going full crazy and letting him target ground (which would be huge as a 3 units displacement)

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    I love Tiny on DotA 2, as the game offers a lot more item pickups or him and I like his transition into a right-clicking brute as the game goes along is great!

    But it's hard to not appreciate what Pebbles can offer in his kit. Sure, he's no instaKO hero like Fayde, Parasite, etc., anymore, but he's still really solid. He's a hero I see as very rewarding if you put in the effort to make things happen with him. Like using Chuck to throw enemies into a Tempest ult or throwing allies so they can have a free gap-closer or to deny them if they have very little HP in a bad situation. Pebbles is also an awesome "tank," as that passive gives him something very unique to help him withstand being targeted by enemy debuffs. It doesn't get the spotlight, but it's very common to see a Pebbles refresh after being debuffed and then making a big play right after.

    Even though comp SEA is the top tier of HoN, and it may be difficult to replicate their success with Pebbles, but it shows Pebbles is a hero that works at high level play.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownKitty View Post
    Pebbles is also an awesome "tank," as that passive gives him something very unique to help him withstand being targeted by enemy debuffs.
    To be fair, that doesn't fit his skillset at all. Thematic-speaking, yes, but he is no way a tank. His base armor has always been one of the lowest of the game and he doesn't have much AGI gain, so no, he is not a good tank.

    We could use that opportunity to either rework that skill or make his ultimate give him the armor (and magic armor ?) that he is lacking.

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  13. #13
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    I have been experimenting several builds.

    The one that yields the best results was daemonic+ sh + shieldbreaker ( devastating carrying) ( off course pk+bones early on)


    However my initial issue with the hero is the laning phase. Pebbles WILL not win the mid lane against ranged heroes anymore due to the low early burst. I have played 7 pebbles games yesterday. I won 6 games, I lost one. In almost all my games I had to outplay my opponent so hard, they all had laning advantages over me.

    In 1500 games, it's not a big deal. You just retreat, roam and farm woods. In higher games, if mid lane is not balanced, it will yield catastrophic results. Therefore, there is absolutely no point in picking pebbles. Someone please convince me of this hero's current utility over magmus ?
    Last edited by Sympho; 01-28-2017 at 02:58 AM.

    Fixed by SmurfinBird. Thank you

  14. #14
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    Pebbles has much higher spell damage than Magmus, excluding Magmus' ult. His spells offer much more utility as well, such as poor man's PK, ally denial, chuck backs, etc. Pebbles enjoys more versatile item builds than Magmus, whom is usually seen picking up spellshards/grimoire or kuldra/hellflower.

    Pebbles staff effect is much better than Magmus' and offers new playstyles when picked up. Pebbles stun is AoE, so he is not required to hit targets in a straight line as Magmus is. Pebbles stun also applies itself over a period of time, which means opponents may walk into it after the fact, and I find this more forgiving than Magmus' stun. Pebbles enjoys much greater physical damage output than Magmus, both in lane and in the later game. This makes last hitting on Pebbles easier, and also allows for physical damage itemization.

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    It doesn't help pebbles that tundra blows him out of the water in every way now. More base damage for whatever reason no 0 armor gimmick and just as must burst with way more harassment potential. There's no reason to ever pick pebbles now.

  16. #16
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    I always wondered why pebbles cant toss heroes onto towers? If they make him toss heroes onto towers or racks, this would make him viable pick again, and pretty strong imo.
    Last edited by IDIOT666; 03-04-2017 at 07:53 AM.

  17. #17
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    Hi, frequent pebb player here.

    Three options to play/pick this hero:
    1. Enemy has a melee mid.
    2. Dual mid with a support.
    3. Run short lane pebbles (e.g if an ss or pm goes mid)

    Having him chuck at towers themselves is dumb, as that is not the issue. He can already do this, with much higher skill cap and reward. Don't dumb the hero down. His issue is that he gets destroyed by harassment in lane, and is quite useless without a rune or pk as a gap closer. As such, if he gets destroyed in lane, he can be quite useless all game. Keep in mind he has a very specific timing window where if he doesn't get pk in that time he becomes simply a utility hero, and not a burster/ganker.

    Suggestions:
    - buff armour and starting intel (so you can combo and buy a shield).
    - minor buff to combo damage (just enough to add an extra 3-5 mins to pk window, nothing too drastic).

  18. #18
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    I would normally agree with you -

    But if the top teams in the world are picking that hero as their mid AND short lane, I do not want to buff the hero. They buffed fayde and tundra - who were already picked nearly every game.

    Let's not buff a hero who's already excellent.

  19. #19
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    Imo Pebbles is fine, some rotations from your jungle/support and you get a kill and Early pk.

    @IDIOT666 I dont know if your intention is damaging towers but if you wanna do it, stay close to the tower and target yourself when you use the Toss.
    The impact will damage the tower.

    Good way to get tower last hit/pushing it with Staff ^^
    Last edited by KawaiiDesu`; 03-17-2017 at 01:06 PM.

  20. #20
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    I just think the gimmicky limitations he has at the start aren't needed anymore, seeing as there are such immensely powerful laners in HON right now. Throw the poor dude 2-3 armor, and let him combo without needing 3+ totems at the start, I say he's fine after that.

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