Noob mode

[[MOA]Wize]

Hey there, this is my first suggestion, hope its in the right format I tried to read all of the rules....

I've been playing dota for about 4 years, and HoN extensively for the last few months...

Its just a rough idea I have been playing around with, could be incredibly hard to code, I'm not sure...

It is a built-in tool for accelerating the learning of newer players to allow for more enjoyable games by all...

The idea stems from my experience in helping noobs learn the VERY basics of the game.

Such as:

When and maybe what to buy (ensuring some sort of hp regen is recommended early on).

Inform them where to stand during the laning phase (just behind where the creeps are engaging).

When you are getting too close to the enemies in the lane.

When you are not collecting any exp because you are too far away from the action.

Maybe some sort of indicator to the side that changes colour indicating when you are at considerable risk, medium risk, minimal risk and also indicating that you are not getting exp or if you are getting exp. This could also factor in how long on the map enemies have been missing and whether or not there is a potential risk...

If you have an enemy stunner in your lane, you could show some sort of warning when u get close to the enemy stunner: "danger stun" with an arrow to the enemy or something... So the player knows that if they get that close, they are at risk of being stunned...


Basically, what i'm talking about, is some sort of live, dynamic help feature for noobs, to save my fingers/voicebox from having to inform these noobs on how to play.

I'm not sure how you could implement it, as maybe pros could make use of the heroes missing/potential risk feature. But maybe you could have it as an option to turn on for your first 10 games or something...

I know there are much more important things being worked on at the moment but, who knows, this may be easy to do. I believe it will drastically help new players reach a level where they can be helpful to a team, rather than cause mass rages. My experience with helping noobs is that, at the start of the game, they are willing to take advice, but after a couple of mistakes and copping some rage from teammates, they tend to switch off and just feed or leave. If we had a system like this, I believe we will see much less silly mistakes and a higher tolerance to new players. You can rest assured knowing that these players know how to get the exp, how to minimise risk and just general basics on getting levelled up a bit and to a stage where u can help your team...

Thanks


Edit: thought I better clarify, this is for any games, it isn't a game mode like EM or SD, its just kind of a learning feature that noobs can turn on if they are playing one of their first 10 games... So they could just join a "5v5 SD noobs only" and if it is one of first 10 games they have ever played, they have the option of turning on the "noob tips" feature or something...

[[MOA]Wize]

bump

[Niltech]

Fail poll.

This isn't viable.

A) This would be complicated to employ were such a endeavor feasible
B) It is not feasible, as there are different play styles for different players and,
C) The game is SO dynamic that attempting to model it would be futile, as new methods, strats, and meta game is constantly changing.
D) Finally, assuming you believe that money grows on trees and S2 can hire as many people as they want to do this, every time they changed something in the game they would have to update this feature, and as money does not grow on trees they would have to spend money to maintain this feature, which would be of little use to few people.

I vote no. There would be benefit, but this is a ridiculous idea. In the future, when AI is adaptive and autonomous, I imagine something similar to this concept will be employed in many games.


IMO, close thread.

[Zadam]

Fail poll.

This isn't viable.

A) This would be complicated to employ were such a endeavor feasible
B) It is not feasible, as there are different play styles for different players and,
C) The game is SO dynamic that attempting to model it would be futile, as new methods, strats, and meta game is constantly changing.
D) Finally, assuming you believe that money grows on trees and S2 can hire as many people as they want to do this, every time they changed something in the game they would have to update this feature, and as money does not grow on trees they would have to spend money to maintain this feature, which would be of little use to few people.

I vote no. There would be benefit, but this is a ridiculous idea. In the future, when AI is adaptive and autonomous, I imagine something similar to this concept will be employed in many games.


IMO, close thread.

Fail response.

Dude you have no idea about AI or programming do you? The majority of things he proposed are completely doable, and not complicated at all. See below:

When and maybe what to buy (ensuring some sort of hp regen is recommended early on).

Prompt user to go to the "recommended" section of the shop, also suggesting a hp potion or runes of blight should be the first item to purchase. OMG SO HARD!

Inform them where to stand during the laning phase (just behind where the creeps are engaging).

Have an arrow or highlighted area appear just behind where the creeps are currently with a prompt telling the user "stand here". JESUS I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY CAN DO IT!

When you are getting too close to the enemies in the lane.

Have a warning message flash when you get within range of the enemies longest ranged ability. Wow the computer has to compare 2 numbers, the users distance from the enemy, versus the range of the enemies longest skill. Computers can't do math can they, surely this is impossible?

When you are not collecting any exp because you are too far away from the action.

Flash a warning if enemy creeps are dying but the player is slightly too far away to get xp. Once again, if only computer could do simple maths this might be possible, but I just can't see how this could work...

Maybe some sort of indicator to the side that changes colour indicating when you are at considerable risk, medium risk, minimal risk and also indicating that you are not getting exp or if you are getting exp. This could also factor in how long on the map enemies have been missing and whether or not there is a potential risk...

Have the risk indicator be based on how much HP you have left, how close enemies are, and how many of them there are. Oh wait, computers can't calculate things, my bad. Have the "xp gain" indicator turn red (not getting xp) if the player hasn't gotten any xp for 15 seconds, and turn green if they have. No wait, computers don't know about time so we can't do that. As for detecting how long enemies have been missing, have it based on how long that enemy has been in the fog of war (not visible to your team), and have it display a warning if a certain enemy has been not seen for over x amount of time. Damn it only computers knew about time.

If you have an enemy stunner in your lane, you could show some sort of warning when u get close to the enemy stunner: "danger stun" with an arrow to the enemy or something... So the player knows that if they get that close, they are at risk of being stunned...

Does the enemy near you have an ability which can stun, and are you almost in range of it? Display a warning. Shoot, so many solutions could be solved if only computers could perform mathematical calculations!

[Niltech]

Fail response.

Dude you have no idea about AI or programming do you? The majority of things he proposed are completely doable, and not complicated at all. See below:



Prompt user to go to the "recommended" section of the shop, also suggesting a hp potion or runes of blight should be the first item to purchase. OMG SO HARD!



Have an arrow or highlighted area appear just behind where the creeps are currently with a prompt telling the user "stand here". JESUS I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY CAN DO IT!



Have a warning message flash when you get within range of the enemies longest ranged ability. Wow the computer has to compare 2 numbers, the users distance from the enemy, versus the range of the enemies longest skill. Computers can't do math can they, surely this is impossible?



Flash a warning if enemy creeps are dying but the player is slightly too far away to get xp. Once again, if only computer could do simple maths this might be possible, but I just can't see how this could work...



Have the risk indicator be based on how much HP you have left, how close enemies are, and how many of them there are. Oh wait, computers can't calculate things, my bad. Have the "xp gain" indicator turn red (not getting xp) if the player hasn't gotten any xp for 15 seconds, and turn green if they have. No wait, computers don't know about time so we can't do that. As for detecting how long enemies have been missing, have it based on how long that enemy has been in the fog of war (not visible to your team), and have it display a warning if a certain enemy has been not seen for over x amount of time. Damn it only computers knew about time.



Does the enemy near you have an ability which can stun, and are you almost in range of it? Display a warning. Shoot, so many solutions could be solved if only computers could perform mathematical calculations!

At first I was going to respond to each of your points, but your response really doesn't merit such effort.

What you are talking about is feasible and easy. You are talking about simple conditional feedback. Would this be useful? Mostly for players who have little experience with RTS games. Otherwise this is not very useful. If someone had played 5 games of DotA or HoN, this mode would be nearly useless and more of a distraction than a help.



Still not worth building. Would cost too much to develop and maintain. It would be more useful to build a single player campaign as that would add considerably more value.

Single player couldn't have campaign?

I would image that it would not have the traditional 2 sides, until near the end of the game, but like RTS before it, start will simple missions that teach the most basic things.

Why would this add more value? If there is a less than horrid story, many skilled players would mess around with it for fun.



Final statement this is just another thing to maintain that will have little value this far into beta, gain little value at launch, and begin to lose value after day one of launch.

[Zadam]

At first I was going to respond to each of your points, but your response really doesn't merit such effort.

What you are talking about is feasible and easy. You are talking about simple conditional feedback. Would this be useful? Mostly for players who have little experience with RTS games. Otherwise this is not very useful. If someone had played 5 games of DotA or HoN, this mode would be nearly useless and more of a distraction than a help.



Still not worth building. Would cost too much to develop and maintain. It would be more useful to build a single player campaign as that would add considerably more value.

Single player couldn't have campaign?

I would image that it would not have the traditional 2 sides, until near the end of the game, but like RTS before it, start will simple missions that teach the most basic things.

Why would this add more value? If there is a less than horrid story, many skilled players would mess around with it for fun.



Final statement this is just another thing to maintain that will have little value this far into beta, gain little value at launch, and begin to lose value after day one of launch.

Yes simple conditional feedback would be easy, and yes it would have limited use beyond giving a complete beginner a bit of a warning when something bad is about to go down. But this is what the original post proposed! So my response wasn't to argue whether it would be worth doing or not, it was to refute your ludicrous assertion that to implement such a thing would be impossible/incredibly costly and time consuming except "when AI is adaptive and autonomous".

As for your other suggestion I completely agree, a single player campaign would be a fantastic way of teaching noobs the basics. Ironically enough, THAT suggestion would require a complex AI (which would have to be quite adaptive and autonomous) whereas the OP's suggestions don't at all.

[[BLG]F8]

Far too complex of an idea to even consider at this stage. A tutorial or AI map would work better than this.

[[IVV]Rinsaku]

Agree with Niltech, too useless of a mode to design.
Wouldn't say it would be too complicated, but just a waste of time

Players want to learn to play? Use practice mode, like everyone else that isn't a whiny b!tch

[[MOA]Wize]

Well you all make valid points. It seems that we are all agreed upon that this feature would be of SOME use. I guess money is now the issue.

[[MORF]Skasian]

Honestly, I like your idea.

However, it is just not feasible. For 2 main reasons I can see straight off:
A) Too hard to implement... too complex
B) Game is too dynamic, each of the things you want to warn about can be affected by a multitude of events occurring on the map. It sounds to me as if you're asking for higher level AI which is capable of making choices for you.

[[MOA]Wize]

Honestly, I like your idea.

However, it is just not feasible. For 2 main reasons I can see straight off:
A) Too hard to implement... too complex
B) Game is too dynamic, each of the things you want to warn about can be affected by a multitude of events occurring on the map. It sounds to me as if you're asking for higher level AI which is capable of making choices for you.

Thanks.

How Zadam broke it down was pretty much exactly what I had in mind. Why would a higher level AI be required here?

Realistically, how long would it take for someone to come up with a basic mod to implement this feature? And would it even be possible to do in a mod?

[[MOA]Wize]

bump

[partyvan]

Great idea (although it's been done in other games before :)

I don't think this concept really needs any complicated AI to be useful. Sure, complex "AI-like" rules could make it better. But the baseline functionality could be quite simple and still be very useful.

"Add hints & tips which display when they're relevant to what the player is doing."

There are lots of trigger points which don't take complex AI-like rules to determine. For example, when the user first enters the game, they can be shown where the shop is, what the pool does, guided towards the recommended items tab, and given help on how to choose a lane.

When they walk by the main building, show a little balloon that explains the significance of that building. When they first walk by a barracks, show a little balloon that explains the significance of the barracks. When they first walk by a tower, show a little balloon that explains the significance of the tower.

If the user dies, they can be told about the respawn timer. Another really useful piece of information to give the player here is the metagame impact of dying: the enemy team gains XP and gold, they lose gold. "Dying a lot significantly increases the chances that the enemy team will win, and that your team will lose." This would be a good time to introduce them to wards and the minimap. Hey, they're dead, might as well have something to read, right? : )

If the user is looking at a recipe which takes an item that isn't available from the shop they're at, help them locate the shop with a marker on the minimap (or something.)

Another thing that wouldn't be too hard to implement: If the user is hitting creeps constantly but hasn't gotten a last hit in the last 60 seconds, give them some hints on last-hitting.

It may sound complicated, but really he's just proposing a dynamic tutorial, which is a very popular way of helping users learn a game. The idea is that players don't really like going through standalone tutorials because tutorials aren't fun: they just want to play the game.

So if you mix the tutorial with the game, more people will use the tutorial, it will be more fun for them. I think it's a good idea and I also think there are many opportunities for dynamic hints that don't require complex AI.

Of course, the hints and tips need to be easy to (and obvious how to) turn off. Also usually with systems like these, you can choose to disable a specific hint, but keep the other hints & tips turned on. For example, if you get tired of being told what the pool does and how to choose a lane when you first enter the game, you can click "don't show me this hint anymore." You'll still get other tips, but won't be bothered by that one anymore.

[[MOA]Wize]

Some great idea's there... Thanks for the input, this is the kind of thing I am talking about...

[g0dAri3s]

Nope I think this mode is not needed and would take way to long to create. Just play some games and soon you will get used to it

[[8cr]Iamdeadmeat]

Nope I think this mode is not needed and would take way to long to create. Just play some games and soon you will get used to it

Honestly, it would take more time to write up the tips then to code when to make them apear. Its not that hard. Enemy in fog of war too long? A timer is easy to code. Your near a hero with an ability which stuns of slows you? Distence is not hard either. Your dead? Oh nevermind these are impossible to implment because, as stated before, computers cant do math.

[[MOA]Wize]

Grandad wants a game? imagine the possibilities.. this would open up the game to people who have never gamed on a computer before. Essentially thrusting people slightly further ahead on the very steep learning curve that is HoN... This feature would also encourage more people to get their friends into the game, happily knowing that they will not have to hand-hold for the first few game nights... I've gotten 9 people into this game now (4 of which have little to no PC gaming experience) and something like this would've made my HoN time more enjoyable during their basic learning phase as I wouldn't have to host "5v5 AP mega-nub" no stats games. And not have to go afk while i go around to their screen and point silly little things out to them...

[[MOA]Wize]

bump

[[MOA]Wize]

Thanks for the input Iamdeadmeat...

S2, can we assume that there will eventually be some sort of tutorial mode released? (other than the practice mode which, imo, is pretty useless for actually helping newbs learn the game past the use-right-click-to-move/attack). Or is this simply never going to be a priority?

If you are planning to have a tut mode or something, what did you have in mind exactly, and will the community be involved with its creation?

[serrath]

If back when I was a noob, there was a tooltip or help bubble thing that even explained to me that my damage was increased by my primary attribute and not my strength, that'd've kicked ass. This is a good idea. Furthermore, Zadam kicks ass.

Also, this would be very helpful every time a wave of invites is released and all servers are full of first-time noobs, who aren't even sure about gaining exp or gold from last hitting, and have yet to learn those strategies. Just turn it on for the first 10 games and your community learns way faster.


GOOD IDEA.