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@OP says is interesting, anw is very hard to balance ANY game, and this isn't exactly the exception.
This thread sucks tbh. Feels like it is aimed at the mentally handicapped.
umm it actually provides decent insight on true balancing...but whatever.
You'd think with this much knowledge on balancing, s2 would have everything balanced by now
Welcome to the forums?Originally Posted by PugnaBro
That just shows how much you didn't read the OP. Or Nome's subsequent post where he said this wasn't aimed at S2. Nome detailed a singular method by which certain things can be balanced. Balance is so complex in games such as this (especially considering how much difference skill makes) that to cover it in any detail Nome would have to make twenty or more posts like the one he made in the OP.
Any then some troll like yourself would go "tl;dr".
6/10
I was gonna rate you lower but hey, I fell for it so I suppose you deserve marks for that.
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Well I can see why balancing is difficult, though I'd really like to see S2 try to work from the other end of the balancing theory, as now they keep adding more powerful spells and heroes. I'd like to see them start lower and work it up, as I think that will allow them to see how the hero fits in before he's "OP" and lead them to make more interesting mechanics to make the hero fit into the current metagame. It seems like it might help them adapt to a lot of the heavy criticism that they are receiving right now and would allow them to make the game more interesting than it already is.
tbh, i don't think a lot of the balancing needs to be done hero side as of present. as the game sits now, there isn'ta hero you can pick and guarantee a win everytime. that is good for balancing, and as long as that holds true, i think as far as hero balance is concerned the game is good to go. obviously certain heroes will be stronger than others, and certain strats will ultimately work better, but that is true for any game.
as far as i can tell, i think items need to be invented and reworked to make the game more interesting. the items thus far are primarily pre-exisiting dota equivalents (which is good), but i would like to see new and better items. more items with active abilities, more 'core on every hero items' like marchers, more role specific items, such as a good TANK item, or a good new SUPPORT item (stay away from dps items on this, we already have a lot of them).
According to balancing theory, Flint Beastwood is overpowered because:
1. His ultimate has a much lower mana cost than Blazing Strike / Silver Bullet
2. His ultimate is only slightly less damage than Silver Bullet (I'm not really sure off the top of my head, but I'm still pretty sure it's higher DPS than silver bullet at all levels taking into account cooldowns)
3. His ultimate has a MUCH higher range and tracks the target, which makes up for its channeling time since you can cast it while you aren't even seen
4. He's an agi hero so he scales as time goes on, compared to WS/Pyro who are int heroes who generally get relatively weaker than agis as the game goes on. That should mean Money Shot should be much weaker/less useful than blazing strike/silver bullet because flint has much more power in other aspects than the int heroes.
So what, according to balance theory, makes him balanced? I'm not saying I think Flint is overpowered, because I don't think he is, I'm just saying that in theory, looking at his skills, he should be considered overpowered.
1) He has 3 other Skills, and having one overpowered Skill doesn't make the whole hero too strong
2) His Ult being channeling is a much bigger downside than you think it is
3) Even a 0 CD wouldn't matter much, as there is a virtual CD coming from the Manacost
4) Bullet is MUCH more Damage. The amount of fights in which you get 2 Moneyshots off is low, so the lower CD doesn't matter
5) Lategame it becomes useless (unlike Strike/Bullet), as the Channeling time leads to LESS damage than by simply autoattacking
^^ that and this:
Flint Beastwood: base strength is 16 & str per level is 1.7 (mushy), has one slow + has item dependance + very mushy = low survivability, can be killed before ult gets off.
Witch Slayer: base str is 16 & str per level is 1.7 (mushy), has 2 disables + does not depend on items + very mushy = higher, but still low survivability because he can disable an opponent twice, and then ult him for a kill.
"Item dependence"?
How is item dependence a disadvantage? It's not a disadvantage. Flint Beastwood benefits MORE from items than Witch Slayer. It's an advantage. Heroes, when not playing a support role (imagine witch slayer on the same team as a glacius or voodoo who took over support), all benefit from items. The fact that Flint benefits MORE from items is an advantage, not a disadvantage. Flint gets more benefit per amount of gold farmed. If "item dependence" was a disadvantage, everyone would run all-int lineups because hey, all our heroes don't need items to be good!
And what kind of witch slayer disables twice then ults for a kill? In general, a witch slayer will ult as soon as a teamfight begins, or BETWEEN a hex/graveyard depending on which was cast first in the situation.
The amount of fights where you could get two moneyshots off is actually quite high. If an enemy is pushing into your base, you can easily get 2-3 moneyshots off while they're pushing, making it do much more than a single silver bullet at a much safer range. Maybe it isn't considered a "teamfight" yet because they haven't initiated, but being able to snipe their Vindicator or Voodoo Jester and drop them to half life before the fight begins is invaluable for turtling and defending a base overall.
Money Shot/Bullet doing less dps than simply autoattacking isn't a downside to the skill. It shows that Flint has an advantage in that area as well. You usually use moneyshot when you're out of autoattack range anyway though so it's not really much of a deal.
You're also ignoring Flint's other skills as well. His hollowpoint shells offer much more survivability than you'd think vs someone like a Soulstealer (which is probably why someone would pick Flint) since it cancels his animation, and his range is probably one of the only reasons he survives as long as he does in the first place. So I wouldn't say his other skills are bad at all. He has 4 good skills vs Witch Slayer's 3. Any good Witch Slayer will get max 1 level in power drain to cancel a nullstone and go stats instead because draining mana is essentially giving your opponent a 400 mana cost spell that stuns you for 4 seconds while you stupidly channel doing no damage during a teamfight on a hero that already used his spells.
Last edited by clim15; 09-19-2010 at 04:05 AM.
Item dependence is a disadvantage early game , but it is an advantage late game .
If "all your hero do not need item to be good" you are scrweed after 40 min.
yeah dude youre talking about scaling now nto my point at all. and i don't think it's very easy to explain in text. basically i was trying to point out the utility of each ult. yes flints is a little more 'spammable' but it isn't really effective.
item dependence is a disadvantage for this discussion, because without items flint is ineffective. if he got no items, late game, he would be able to nuke and ult and then hed have to run. thats why its balanced. hes worthless if thats how you play him, so you use his ult to build his autoattack and then once ur auto is high, u dont ult anymore.
thus his ult is balanced because he doesnt need it to be a good a hero. he needs items. his other skills add utility to his auto-attack which is where he shines. hes a high dps hero, that scales better than witch.
their oles aren't really comparable but their ults are. balancing it off witch slayer is fine because of the CD on both spells total to about the same (2x for flint ~= 1x for witch), mana cost is about the same (using the 2:1) and damage is about the same (using the 2:1). then when you take into other balances (involving other skills and items) you see the utility aspect.
flint doesn't really need active skills at all to be effective (they aid him).
no skills - dps needs items
thus spamming his ult isn't very effective
where as witch relies solely on his active skills (well he also doesn't have any passive skills).
needs skill - disabler/ganker doesn't need items
spamming this ult is more effective.
Last edited by pwn_U_fast; 09-23-2010 at 04:21 PM.
dude op is a staff member.Hope S2 reads this. I don't want any more "Slow and Nuke in an AoE, or Slow and heal yourself, or blink away"..
E: To actually comment on the Guide, pretty well writtenand should help some guys in the Suggestions board.
nice post by the way. interesting read, lets us know S2 is thinking
He wasn't back then.
it is a really well written guide and a lot of people don't understand this at all.
No offense, and not sure if this has been said before, but while this guide looks good at first glance, it is essentially useless.
Unless you are starting with perfect balance, this "Law of Consessions" does not help balance at all.
Balancing a game is about buffing underpowered heroes while bringing overpowered heroes down to par, not about keeping their skills at the same level, just altering their affects (turning a 1000 dmg nuke with 10s cd into a 500 dmg nuke with 5s cd doesn't make it any less overpowered).
New hero introduction cannot be balanced without extensive testing.
Sorry, but Nome's Wisdom is a bad item.
The only thing this guide is good for (other than printing it out to wipe your ass with; which, in retrospect, it is not very useful for either) is for adding flavor to pre-balanced skills.
This guide has actually nothing to do with attaining balance, moreof maintaining balance when changing a skill to add/change effects.
Last edited by eRageInc; 10-21-2010 at 04:12 AM.
Very nice post. But I can pretty much tell you that noobs won't understand worth a s*&t on this post. This also doesn't accurately describe those spells that do waay more damage, as they are there to be OP in a sense, but really add to the game.
like what ability?
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