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Thread: Balancing Theory

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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    The Law of Concessions
    I think Its a nice idea, but those are all minor details that is not lead to the current outcry of imbalances. These small details can be fixed over a long period of time.

    Using your Idea to make a balanced hero you should instead of comparing stats or individual skill, compare their ability to disable, ranged / melle damage, tank, escape, chase.



    forexsample, say you wanted to remake Like an "barbed armor" tank such as , but with more utility.

    So you start with the core of this hero, their spikeyness. So for blance matter you dont want to make <.


    So you compare their core concept ability:
    Whirling blade and Cyclones,

    Requirements are both need to be close to enemies, but legion require attacks to activate but zepth's are always on if you killed creeps before fight.

    wins

    Damage Both are non burst except vary early game with legion,
    (average of half tornadoes under enemies at given time)
    4 x 30dps = 180 dps thats magic.
    (averge of 1 spin per second)
    1ias x 175 = 175 dps that true.

    Ties.

    Counters
    vs Dont auto attack him.
    vs Slow or snare him. (dont think run away as that is true with everyhero)

    So wins this category as he is harder to avoid being damaged.

    Surpize factor Dont exist for any. so tie.

    Others
    Farming - Zepth wins as his skills do not need to be attacked to be used, and cyclones last long enough to carry over next creepwave / spawn. Minor win

    Well legion don't heal from spinning so
    Major win.


    His cyclones have to kind of keep up with him so
    minor win.

    Now you do this for every skill of the heros, also factor in synergies, then the hero stats.

    Compare This with other heroes of its ilk. Such as tempest ult with zepth ult at controlling groupfights. etcetc

    It seems to me whoever is making these hero changes are not factoring in the underpowered and used heroes.

    Cuz when I do this against all the heroes that zepth can be compared to... Zepth wins! Only kraken comes close.





  2. #42
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    Kill ratio farming, and conceding.

    It is retarded to see how people play hon no days. You have people create noob games just to kill them and get a better rating. Then after they are farm they concede to lower their psr so they can farm more noobs.

    First of all, if all the new guys are getting owned like this, no one will buy this game. You guys will not make any money at all. And it is morale wrong for something like this to happen because you guys are unable to manage the balance of game status and fun factor.

    Suggestion: when you concede, your kills and death rating does not count. Also, when you kill people below your certain psr or kill ratio, you don't gain any status.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by will504 View Post
    It is retarded to see how people play hon no days. You have people create noob games just to kill them and get a better rating. Then after they are farm they concede to lower their psr so they can farm more noobs.

    First of all, if all the new guys are getting owned like this, no one will buy this game. You guys will not make any money at all. And it is morale wrong for something like this to happen because you guys are unable to manage the balance of game status and fun factor.

    Suggestion: when you concede, your kills and death rating does not count. Also, when you kill people below your certain psr or kill ratio, you don't gain any status.
    just get rid of all stats
    problem fixed

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Linniz View Post
    So you compare their core concept ability:
    Whirling blade and Cyclones,

    Damage Both are non burst except vary early game with legion,
    (average of half tornadoes under enemies at given time)
    4 x 30dps = 180 dps thats magic.
    (averge of 1 spin per second)
    1ias x 175 = 175 dps that true.

    Incorrect. Legionnaire's Whirl does Physical Damage, and it's highly unlikely all 4 cyclones will be on the opponent at the same time unless you unitwalk someone.

    Back ontopic:
    It's a pretty awesome article (informative, especially if you haven't encountered balancing before), but take the example of a skill that instantly kills a random enemy with manacost 1000 and cooldown 600 seconds. Is it "balanced"? It doesn't seem right.

  5. #45
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    It might be balanced, but its boring and a stupid idea

    There are concessions between balance and entertainment too
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkySoul View Post
    Damage is USELLESS ESPECIALLY ON THE HARDEST CARRY.
    My ISP blocks LoL forums

  6. #46
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    2. Agility does not imply carry.
    Nome you FOOL! If a hero is Agility, he HAS to be a carry![/sarcasm]

    Nice guide again, hope that people keep their suggestions balanced and well-thought.

  7. #47
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    Law of Concessions... cool name for what every smart guy does in here =)

    And we don't need a lot of math, it doesn't have to be exactly balanced. DotA isn't.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llama View Post
    It might be balanced, but its boring and a stupid idea

    There are concessions between balance and entertainment too
    Carrying the game with an overpowered hero isn't entertaining, it just gives you the feeling of getting free psr. :s

  9. #49
    very well written guide but this is kinda like soul reaper's ulti right but without the heal... wouldnt that mean soul would have to be buffed to counter this ulti making him useless? as his skills late game become useless such as heals and dejen.

  10. #50
    This should also include something about risk vs reward
    In other words, the more risk something takes, the more rewards it should give.

    For example, Valk arrow is very hard to hit, but can but up to a 5 second stun.

    A targetted or aoe stun is harder to hit than a targetted stun, and should thus deal more damage/longer stun.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    The Law of Concessions
    This is not a real law--it's something I made up for this article. However, it is something you should follow at all times when using this method of balancing. To be exact, when building a skill from a balanced baseline, for everything you add, you must take something away. For example, if you add damage, then you must increase mana cost. If you remove cooldown, then you must decrease stun duration. On the other hand, if you increase damage, but lower cooldown, you create a direct imbalance in usefulness. Note however that there are certain exceptions to the rule--Magebane's Flash far outclasses Wretched Hag's Flash of Darkness in every respect. This stresses the importance of context--while Magebane is a single-target DPS survivalist carry, Wretched hag is a spell-casting DPS monster.

    To illustrate the concept of the Law of Concessions, let's take a look at DotA's Sven the Rogue knight and Leoric the Skeleton King. DotA is used because there exists a large amount of redundancy in the skills, though IceFrog has been trying to differentiate heroes lately. Because DotA has been through years of playtesting and balancing, we can use its numbers as a baseline for what we wish to do. Historically, the two heroes played foil to one another. Both were strength melee DPS characters who shared an identical stun skill and heavy reliance on passive abilities and damage amps.

    • Rogue Knight's Storm Bolt: single-target AoE, high cooldown, high damage.
    • Skeleton King's Hellfire Blast: single-target, low cooldown, medium damage.

    Older DotA players may remember that both the Rogue Knight and Skeleton King had Storm Bolt at one point, though the actual spell mechanics were identical to the current Hellfire Blast, while Rogue Knight's version was eventually changed to its current incarnation. Therefore, we take Hellfire Blast as the baseline, and balance from there.

    1. The Rogue Knight previously had only one AoE spell, which was Great Cleave. Therefore, his stun was given an AoE effect in order to synergize with the cleave and make him an effective group damage dealer.
    2. The AoE is a huge buff, as it allows for the Rogue Knight to disable a group of heroes. Therefore, we must use the Law of Concessions--the cooldown is much higher, and to keep up his total DPS, the damage is also increased to make up for the much less frequent use of the spell.

    These changes in effect make the two heroes incredibly different. Hellfire Blast remains a great ganking tool, as the effective cooldown is only 6 seconds. That means that if you fight a high-mana Leoric, you are effectively disabled 25% of the time. Storm Bolt on the other hand becomes much for useful as a team-fighting skill. Paired with heroes that can clump up enemies like Enigma or Magnus, it equates to a powerful full-team disable and damage. In effect, this change shakes up the roles of each character. Storm Bolt gained damage and AoE and conceded cooldown. The Skeleton King remains a single-target DPS with amazing tanking, while the Rogue Knight gains powerful physical and magical AoE capabilities, yet the overall balance remains sensible.

    Let's make our own example now. Let's say we want to give our hero a big hero-killing ultimate meganuke. We have two baseline references for this:


    But we don't want to just add yet another big one-off nuke, do we? That's unoriginal. Let's say we already designed his other skills--he's going to be a tankish hero that does a ton of damage both to himself and to his enemies. We come up with a cool concept...

    Vengeance: Deals X + Y*(%HP missing) in damage. Cap of Z total damage.

    This skill essentially does more damage the more health you're missing. To make things simple, let's balance for LVL3 only. Silver Bullet does 850 magic damage at 55 second cooldown. Blazing Strike does 950 damage at 55 second cooldown. We may, for the purposes of this example, disregard mana, as these heroes are both INT and can largely be assumed to have a big enough mana pool to be able to use their ultimates at will. We must also remember that our two baseline references are INT, which means they become less effective as the game moves on. To spice things up, let's make our hero an AGI, which means he actually becomes more effective as the game moves on. Now let's begin to use the Law of Concessions to create and balance our skill.

    1. Pyromancer's Blazing Strike deals more damage than Silver Bullet because Witch Slayer has a superior suite of disables, which become more effective the longer the game goes on. Because our AGI hero scales better as the game moves on, the absolute cap should max out at 850 for now, which is Silver Bullet's unboosted max.
      Vengeance: Deals X + Y*(%HP missing) in damage. Cap of 850 total damage.
    2. However, we don't want Vengeance to be doing THAT much damage all the time. Yet we don't want it to be worthless either. So let's give it 350 base damage--that is, if you're at full HP, it will do that much. 350 is a decent number, because it's just as good as a normal nuke, but stresses the fact that if you don't use it under the perfect conditions, it's just as bad as a normal nuke as well.
      Vengeance: Deals 350 + Y*(%HP missing) in damage. Cap of 850 total damage.
    3. Now for the multiplier, which depends on a hidden variable--the minimum HP reward. The maximum bonus damage is 500. However, you do not want to present the maximum reward at the minimum HP (1%). Heroes that are at 1% HP should not be rewarded any more than a heroes at 2%--this is because it presents a frustrating case for the enemies hitting him. Therefore, we want to set a minimum cap. 25% HP is a good one--heroes at 25% are considered low, but not so dangerously low that using Vengeance would make his opponents cry bull. Now that we have that, it's easy to set the multiplier and tweak the equation.
      Vengeance: Deals 350 + 6.6*(%HP missing) in damage. Cap of 850 total damage.
    4. But why stop there? Let's take it further. Not only do we want Vengeance to deal damage, but we want it to heal *you* for a portion of the damage dealt. To gain this immensely powerful effect, we must make concessions. First, we must acknowledge that the healing effect is worthless when you're at full HP--therefore, we should base it entirely on the bonus portion of the damage. Next, we should consider that if we add a healing effect, it shouldn't do as much damage, because that would make it too powerful. Therefore, we must lower the multiplier and the cap. We don't want to make the heal too low, but we don't want to make it too high either, and because we are lowering the multiplier and the cap, we can make the heal multiplier be 100% of the bonus damage. The most powerful single-target heal in the game belongs to Jeraziah, who heals and deals 360 true damage, and can be cast on anyone. Vengeance only affects your target and yourself. Because it is also an ultimate, it should be higher. Therefore, we come up with this:

    Vengeance: Deals 350 + 5.0*(%HP missing) in damage. Cap of 725 total damage. Heals yourself for 100% of the bonus damage inflicted.

    Hope you enjoyed the read, and happy suggesting!
    so now rather than soul reapers opening with demon execution we got people opening with vengeance at full health ?


    Hehe I kid

    it sounds like a great idea to me

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Llama View Post
    It might be balanced, but its boring and a stupid idea

    There are concessions between balance and entertainment too
    ^Fails

    Balance=Variety=Entertainment

  13. #53
    @Nome
    Nice law.
    Really helpfull on making things balanced.

    @Tripwyr
    Would love to see that comin ^^

    @Linniz
    Another good point here. Agreed!

  14. #54
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    Can someone explain how scout and zeph are "balanced" the recent debuff on zephs cyclone's are decent although I would like to see a change in his third since it increases ms and evasion, scout has hardly been touched at all, Im not talking about him being another bd invis hero, im talking about him being missing for 40 min and dealing 3k dmg in half a second on less! Cronos seemed more balanced then scout

  15. #55
    I think S2 should make more heros with all with AOE that contains a little bit of stun , a little bit of nuke , a little bit of slow , a little bit of silence and a whole lot of gay! Oh wait they are already doing that nevermind.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosmongler View Post
    I mean, obviously you can't have a skill that deals damage, heals you, acts as a blink, and can be toggled to turn into a nasty nuke. Oh wait - you can. The 'concession' here is that maliken's other skills are not super strong. Whether or not this is balanced is up for debate, but that brings me to my point - no matter how balanced things look on paper, things are arbitrary and unbalanced until they've been fleshed out by in-game testing.

    I would say its balanced. His IAS skill is worthless until you get high dps liek riftshards or something. The only things that make sword throw good is that it can be toggled for heal vs dmg, and acts like a blink. overall in gameplay and most contexts its balanced. if however, you kick someone in game and give all that gold to mali, hes usually really op because he can solo farm like its going out of style.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by HClCaSaT View Post
    Balance=Variety=Entertainment
    Law of Concessions for skills is like this very BASIC model:

    Mana Cost vs. Damage and/or 1/Cooldown
    Damage vs. Mana Cost and Cooldown
    Cooldown vs. Damage or 1/Mana Cost

    This means if you increase mana cost, you should either increase damage, or decrease cooldown to keep the equation balanced. If you increase damage you must increase manacost, or increase the cooldown. etc.

    however when looking at the big picture and comparing balance to entertainment, CaSaT is right. Those are direct proportions. If you increase balance - variety should be increased and so should entertainment. If you decrease balance (OP hero) - variety is generally decreased (op skills), and entertainment value goes down (ruined games). The same doesn't hold true though when looking at individual heroes and their skill-sets. To balance one skill alone is a combination of direct and inverse proportions, and attempting to compare one heroes balance to another gets is even more proportions. Then when you take that to entire game balance, you can see that manipulating one heroes skills will effectively change the entire game.
    Last edited by pwn_U_fast; 06-24-2010 at 06:48 PM. Reason: finished post

  18. #58
    there is "no" balancing theory - i allways get a team which finally sucks - whether in public nor in MM. I allways get the biggest newbs cuz my PSR constantly gets lower... there are no misses in my team and finally the enemies seems to play as a team... so i allways gets ****ed and my PSR will suck - even my K and EVERYTHING else will get ****ed - i cannot get em back because i allways have to play with newbs and there is just 1 who can play the game - so its 2on5 and just the "pro" dude out of my team cannot handle the whole game on his own. so please rewrite the "balance" theory and piss off that PSR thing. I like that mod "TSR" so you really see who rules and who sucks. Integrate TSR as balancing option instead of that fail PSR **** - PSR cannot tell whos "good" or "bad".

    Thats my opinion - regards...

    eYo

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by eYo View Post
    there is "no" balancing theory - i allways get a team which finally sucks - whether in public nor in MM. I allways get the biggest newbs cuz my PSR constantly gets lower... there are no misses in my team and finally the enemies seems to play as a team... so i allways gets ****ed and my PSR will suck - even my K and EVERYTHING else will get ****ed - i cannot get em back because i allways have to play with newbs and there is just 1 who can play the game - so its 2on5 and just the "pro" dude out of my team cannot handle the whole game on his own. so please rewrite the "balance" theory and piss off that PSR thing. I like that mod "TSR" so you really see who rules and who sucks. Integrate TSR as balancing option instead of that fail PSR **** - PSR cannot tell whos "good" or "bad".

    Thats my opinion - regards...

    eYo
    Umm....were not talking about using the balance button to balance games. We are talking about skills and how to balance a heroes skillsets to work within the meta game. I think you should move your suggestion elsewhere. Unfortunately, I do feel your pain. Bad teammates can ruin games, especially a bad support hero who says hes gonna help babysit you early game or you have a teammate that repeatedly fails to call multiple enemy mias.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Solidsneak View Post
    Nome you FOOL! If a hero is Agility, he HAS to be a carry![/sarcasm]

    Nice guide again, hope that people keep their suggestions balanced and well-thought.
    in fact all agi heroes can be built like carries some of them are semi, well engineer isnt longer a carry but he was before but some agi heroes should be built as support/ganker well zephyr can be built tank.
    and this issue goes for str heroes = tank
    not true either, as some str heroes are carries and stunners initiator pretty much everything but range

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