I have seen a lot of post in balance forums about KotF, but S2 has not changed he yet. I'm going to recopilate all diferences, and you will see that they are greater than you think:
Everybody talks about skills, but have you seen their stats??? :
Str: Rooftrellen: 27, KotF: 26 -> Why???, 1 less base str makes no sense
Agi: Rooftrellen: 15, KotF: 13 -> Omg, 2 less base agi, thats weird
Int: Rooftrellen: 17, KotF: 16 -> 1 less base int
All KotF base stats are lower than Rooftrellen ones.
Str: Rooftrellen: 3.4, KotF: 3.6 -> Strangely KotF has a bigger str gain than Rooftrellen, even having a lower base str. This is a little buff for KotF because above lvl 5 he starts to have more Str than Rooftrellen. He finish having 4 more Str than Rooftrellen.
Agi: Rooftrellen: 2.0, KotF: 1.4 -> This is a HUGE nerf. With a 0.6 less agi gain per level and 2 less base agi KotF finish having 17 less Agi than Rooftrellen. And remember that agi is ASPD and DEF.
Int: Rooftrellen: 1.8, KotF: 1.9 -> This makes not much sense, is a very little buff, that makes ending with1.5 more Int at lvl 25 than Rooftrellen, starting to improve Rooftrellen int above lvl 10 (in lower levels KofT int is lower).
Atk: Rooftrellen: 59 - 67, KotF: 59 - 67 -> Just the same
Atk Range: Rooftrellen: 128, KotF: 128 -> Just the same
Atk: Rooftrellen: 3.1, KotF: 2.82 -> With a lower base def, very lower agi gain, and no def spells KotF overall def is pathetic compared to Rooftrellen.
MS: Rooftrellen: 300, KotF: 290 -> A no sense nerf for KotF, other one for the list.
In overall we can say that KotF stats are clearly worse than Rooftrellen ones. I dont know the reaseon for this nerf, and i think they should be the same, or at least equivalent (i mean a balanced overall).
Nature's Guise vs. Camouflage:
This spells are very similar but there are 2 nerfs to Camouflage, dont know the reason:
- The AoE in Rooftrellen's one is 375 Tree search area (how near you have to stay from a tree to not lose invis), but i'm nearly sure that KotF one is smaller, so you have to stay very close to a tree to not lose invis.
- Rooftrellen can cast spells without losing invisibility from Nature's Guise, KotF cannot. This is a nerf in this skills making you exit from invis when casting skills, even KotF ones like Tree Sight.
Eyes in the Forest vs. Tree Sight:
This spells are sightly differnt, and of course Rooftrellen ones is better T_T.
- Rooftrellen's one creates an INDISTINGUISHABLE tree. This tree is created at melee range (worse than KotF range), but has TRUE SIGHT (that means that detect invis units).
- KotF advantages are that eyes have a 1200 AoE heal regeneration aura (+1 hp regen per spell lvl), the casting range is bigger (2000), thing what helps you to place eyes. Unfortunately KotF one's are easy to detect and destroy, and the biggest nerf is that they dont detect invis units.
Nature's Vengeance, the strange skill:
How should a Keeper of the Forest keep the forest?, someone thinks about taking care of it, but Keeper of the Forest has the real solution: Ripping out the entire forest, so no one can hurt it.
Jokes appart this skill makes no sense in the role of this hero, and above of that it is a mediocre spell that is no match for other direct attack increasing spells like Soulstealer or Rampage passives.
Living Armor was a signature spell of Rooftrellen, making him able to protect and even heal towers & allies. This skill helped Rooftrellen to be one of the toughest tanks in Dota, and a great help in early game. There are no way to compare this two skills, one is a great one, the other is visually amazing, but conceptually and practically mediocre.
Overgrowth vs. Root:
Well, they have nerfed his stats, they have nerfed his main spells, so they had to nerf his ultimate spell. Not much people has detected it but only playing Rooftrellen and the KotF you can see it, this two spells are nearly the same, except by a little thing, the AoE. Rooftrellen ultimate spell has an AoE of 750 while KotF one has 700, so KotF has 50 less AoE. Other nerf to the list.
The sum of subsequent nerfs on his stats and skills makes KotF a naked trunk compared with Rooftrellen. The solution?, stats & spells should be the same or at least similar in power. And for the 3rd skill there are two alternatives, or bringing back Living Armor, or remaking Nature's Vengeance to balance it (in conceptual way too).
So finally I ask you, should Keeper of the Forest be changed in some way?, I think yes, he should.
Thread approved. This guy seriously needs some help and S2 just seems to keep ignoring him again and again. Nature's Vengeance is the worst skill in the game and doesn't synergize with the hero role whatsoever.
His eyes aren't nearly as good for reasons you stated: They don't spot invis units which made them much better before, and being an actual "tree" made them so much harder to kill. The +4 regen thing on them is a joke.
This hero needs a complete rework to be anything close to competitively viable, whenever someone picks him their team becomes basically a 4.25v5
Originally Posted by senzation54
Camouflage and Tree Sight need some fixes.
Nature's Vengeance needs to be replaced by something useful.
Yeah. bring back living armor. Using a tree to whack your opponents wont make u a better tank.
Nice thread and I so agree with everything. Changes they should make:
1) Tree sight. Plant a tree (hard to recognize) and this tree gives KotF a damage boost of +15/30/45/60 dam. Since he doesn't hurt trees and protects them, the trees give him more power.
2)Nature vengeance: change it to living armor and all the others nerfs can stay in place.
These two changes makes it far more versatile to play with this hero.
Make him a direct port already! Tree was a fun hero that I loved to play in DotA, I cringe when I random him in HoN.
Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
who cares. just remake him. its not like treant in dota is in any way fun ,strong or a common pick in pubs or highlvl play.
boring,weak and never picked? -> remake
The real debate is tree whackin or living armor.
What if one of his active abilties had a passive that increased his damage
agreed. he seems so weak early game and transitioning to mid game. he could really use a replacement for nature's vengeance that has more synergy with the rest of his abilities, and is useful early in the game.
Another hero who uses blink dagger, Behemoth (Earthshaker), is still useful without it, he can still block enemies with Fissure and use his ultimate effectively with proper spacing.
If Tree has to get Refresher to be useful, he's still only useful for his ult. His "eyes" are a major downgrade from DotA and are easily removed and even his invis spell is inferior (crappy cast range). I would rather have anybody than this guy on my team.
Originally Posted by senzation54
Great post OP, I really hope S2 returns his DotA skills because he's pretty terrible right now. A walking ultimate and free wards if your opponents are dumb, that's about all he provides.
Crow+Hatchet > Tree.
I like this hero and his new spell; really help on early game on last hit to get radiance quickly. Problem start with Scout's eye...
Why not keeping "Nature's Vengeance", and having a better regen and +armor on the "Eye of the Forrest" to fix to the lack of "Living Armor"
And please, add True Sight on the Eye !
Phenomenal post, Ozram.
S2 hates Rooftrellen. They have to. There's no other explanation.
What's the justification for nerfing his Eyes in the Forest?
It can't be that they were "overpowered" when they had true sight: Scout's Electric Eyes are basically a shameless knock-off.
Compare the 3 spells:
-cost 100/75/50/25 mana
-look like normal trees
-have a melee range cast
-have true sight
-uncapped placement (tough to counter, since they look like normal trees; can be used in battle where no natural trees are present if on-demand true sight is needed)
Scout's Electric Eyes:
-cost 50 mana
-have a melee range cast
-have true sight
-30 second cooldown
-only 5 maximum allowed simultaneously
-can be placed anywhere
-can be detonated for a powerful AOE silence in battle
Keeper's new wards:
-are not invisible, and appear on minimap (nerf)
-can be cast from a large range (buff)
-have a huge cooldown: 300/225/150/75
-must be placed on a tree (huge nerf)
-do not have true sight (inexplicable nerf)
-uncapped placement (same as Rooftrellen)
-now give +1/2/3/4 HP regen (buff; nice little bonus but umm... IT ISN'T TRUE SIGHT)
In depth breakdown:
Rooftrellen's version gives the greatest map control, as they are difficult for the untrained eye to counter, and have combat effectiveness -- being able to summon a tree on command also means on-demand invisibility and true sight, even when there are no trees nearby. Rooftrellen can also place these while stealthed.
Scout's version gives the greatest combat effectiveness. These Eyes are difficult to stop without counter-warding, because you have to be standing on top of them for them to be visible. There are also lots of map-placement spots that make them impossible to see without counter-wards. The conundrum, of course, is that counter-wards aren't really a viable option, because they're only on a 30 second cooldown. And while only 5 are allowed on the map at a time, he can change their position readily -- again credited to the very-forgving cooldown. The silence is also extremely powerful, and Scout can use his silence WHILE DISABLED. Like Rooftrellen, Scout can also place these wards without leaving stealth.
Keeper of the Forest's wards are an absolute bastardization of Rooftrellen's. And Scout's put them to shame. KOTF's wards MUST be placed on trees, so they don't have the flexbility that Rooftrellen's and Scout's versions enjoy. They are easier to spot and counter than Roof's and Scout's, since there is a golden glowing hue over each tree -- and they show up as enemy-colored dots on the minimap. Also, unlike both his counterparts, Keeper's wards DO NOT HAVE TRUE SIGHT. The only buffs to compensate for these enormous nerfs are the +2000 casting range on the ability, and a +1/2/3/4 HP regeneration aura. These two tiny buffs don't compensate for the fact that Logger's Hatchet on a hero -- let alone on a Flying Courier -- renders this spell 100% worthless. This spell, unlike its two predecessors, has ZERO combat effectiveness, and is far inferior to its predecessors for map control because it is ABSURDLY easy to counter.
Basically, KOTF's Eyes are the old version of Rooftrellen's tree wards -- the ones that were good, BEFORE Quelling Blade (Logger's Hatchet) was introduced. But that single item changes the metagame. As for the removal of True Sight on his wards? Inexplicable. There's no justification for such a change. When Scout is running around at max movement speed dropping invisible, silencing, true sighting wards into the middle of battle and KOTF is stuck attaching these pieces of garbage to trees?
Shameful. Inexcusible. Retarded.
Ignoring ALL the other nerfs to KOTF that the original poster mentioned, the terrible changes to his Eyes in the Forest have rendered him ABSOLUTELY UNPLAYABLE.
FIX THIS S2. The community is tired of seeing an invisible Agility carry as the king of map control. GIVE IT BACK TO KEEPER.
He needs to be remade, yes. But most heros are picked primarily for their ult, thier other spells are just icing. Tempest behemoth magmus hag KOTF ults are all game breaking, combined with items (staff of the master, portal key, or restoration stone, depending on the hero) make them even more powerful.
The changes i would make would have his camoflague give 3 seconds of invis no matter where the hero is, then after 3 seconds the hero remains invisable if he is by a tree.
Maby increase the CD to compensate for the added utility.
As for the eye. it really depends on where the programers wanna go, by giving a hero an unlimited suppy wards that see invis. I think, if they see invis, they should remain easy to see, If they dont see invis they should be harder to see.
maby make them more powerful but limit them to 8.
His 3rd spell could be living armor, but even that was boring. I think they should completly redo it coming up with a new, unique spell.
I approve of this thread. Give Living Armor and stealth detection back.
Change Eyes in the Forest to Dota's Eyes. Right now, with every melee hero having a woodcutter in the inventory, it's too easy to kill them, since they have this glow around them. In dota, it's very hard to tell the difference, as they are only slightly paler than normal trees, thus with smart placement, they are incredibly efficient.