Is this actually a good strategy?
It's frowned upon by many players, but it seems to be effective... Sometimes. I mean, in pub games, it works pretty well.
If people don't know what it means, it's when a team groups up as 5, and continually pushes or ganks the enemy team (an enemy team that's usually split up due to farming different lanes or pushing different lanes, or for w/e reason).
It seems that the main counter to this is to just simply carry TPs to support the teammate that's being ganked. And I mean EVERYONE carry a TP on your team, otherwise this'll be useless (5vs4 are bad odds).
So basically, just farm or do whatever it is you were doing before, when you see the enemy push/gank as 5, you TP to help teammates. This way, you get more farm than the enemy team by free farming a lane, and still, in spirit, be a pubtrain team by carrying TPs.
Is there anyway to make pubtraining more effective?
Is there a better counter than the one I proposed above?
Carrying TP's is always a great idea, but the world isn't just black and white like that. Sometimes it is very useful for your team to "pubtrain", at other times it won't be. There'll also be different ways to counter it. It all depends on the heroes in the game.
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They are good and bad. You obviously get a lot less XP, but don't die as much. But if you are against a smart hard carry or something, it isn't a very good idea. But never the less, you may get a lot of kills and not die as much. Really it depends on the game / line up.
And I can't think of better way to counter the train. Just ward up and carry TP's. Basically the only way. Or counter-train :P
Unless it's with/against very specific line-ups/vision it doesn't have a very high successrate against a good team while being significantly more effective vs bad opponents, hence the term 'pub'train. All you really need to do vs a team pubtraining (aka running around as 5 ganking) is to get vision, stay spread and farm the entire map (even if they get 1 pick-off now and then the fact that no one on their team is farming while 3+ in yours is should compensate for this) while being ready to take a teamfight when it'll be on beneficial terms for you (for example at your tower or when you have favorable vision/position).
Pubtraining is a very high risk (you sacrifice hundreds of gold/xp every minute while doing this) and (vs a good team) low/medium reward (if they don't die one by one the pubtraining team shouldn't come out ontop with much even if they get kills) ratio tactic. However a bad team will either just hug the tower vs a pubtrain (giving them the gold/exp advantage despite grouping) or dying 1 by 1 (or in the worst case taking a really poor teamfight) which makes it quite effective in pubs.
Last edited by Sandtrap; 08-23-2012 at 10:05 AM.
It really only works against kids that rage easily and/or if the [harder] carries are not bright and continue to die - then eventually rage, quit, spam cc, etc.
As mentioned, the heroes on each team play a big role in the effectiveness - and how best to counter it. Besides TP and wards, which are obvious and good counters, counter-pushing is also quite effective (and more so with good pushers).
Here are some scenarios:
Say you have hag and tDL with/close to getting RA. Obv with proper vision, you can see a pubtrain heading lets into your [legion] jungle. tDL heads top and free farms, pushing the lane as quickly as possible. Hag goes mid and pushes (free farm by nuking the entire wave; and putting pressure on the tower as quickly as possible). This will work really well if you have a ranged nuker or good turtle heroes (bubbles, behe, pyro, etc.) that can at least slow a 5 man push - if they choose to do that when they catch no1 in the jungle. If they double back and head top or mid, you've got 2 heroes with good escapes that should have TP.
Eventually, you wear down those towers and your semi-carry / carries get pretty farmed up - then you just steam roll the underleveled and vastly under farmed pubtrain 5v5. It does require your team to play pretty smart, and understand what's going on though.. otherwise, your example, 3 man defend will get caught to far out from the tower and die - then you lose that tower quickly, and possibly another ...while your carry either fails to at least push 1 tower or decides to tp back to defend the next tower, and just dies in the process.
Maybe that's not going to work - then try to hang in a group of 4, safely, while your carry tries to farm anywhere the enemy is not. The pubtrain will have to eventually decide to spread out some to farm, or just try to push - as they won't keep up 5 man ganking for to long if they are getting zero action - especially if they can see your carry that they can't manage to catch is flash farming all over the map. You just need to know when it's best to just give up a tower (this is better than giving up a tower and losing a fight with 3-4 deaths and only 1 kill) vs trade towers with your carry taking 1 vs fight 4v5 or fight 5v5 with your carry TPing in
Also Pika managed to keep their Forsaken Archer over 400 gpm while Orange was "pubtraining", so the large exp deficit on top of the fact that their carry was free farming meant they were able avoid fighting until FA could come out and wreck face. Which he did, ending with over 600 gpm I believe
It only works against badly organized teams, or teams witouth a flash-farming carry (preferably with escapes so he doesen't get ganked). It's very easy to counter. Either a flash-farming carry, or someone that continuously backdoors/puts pressure on your towers or simply teammates carrying TPs will destroy your plans very quickly and in case it fails your team is left with very little gold/xp to recover.
It's a stupid strategy that is also stupid easy to counter in most situations unless you had a very bad start.
If you see people pubtrain through the map, put up wards and keep away from them unless you know 100% you will win the 5v5 fight. If not, proceed to push their open lanes, get XP and win the game...
Everything that works is good. A misstake is not a misstake if it doesn't get punished.
I think its pretty in lower tier games, it is very easy to play and kinda easy to counter but in lower tier games people will have no clue how to counter.
It's good if you have push in your lineup and you're ahead (especially if you shut down their carry early). You can just take all outer towers for a massive gold lead and buy an eye.
Use the TPs to port to towers for defense.
As for ganks, it's best to just have wards up. If you simply run away from the train, it'll lose steam and you should easily win, providing you have some late-game potential. Ganks only give about 200-300g. Given the travel time and risk in getting one, its gpm isn't very impressive spread out over 5 people. Unfortunately, not everyone on your team is smart enough to run away. IMO, minimal losses are acceptable. What you DON'T want to do is all port in late and lose a teamfight to the train, because then they WILL cash in. Do NOT lose a teamfight trying to save a noob. Just let him die! I can't stress this enough.
On the same note: don't gank a pubtrain. You will die! It sounds kinda obvious, but if you're say, deadwood or pebbles, you WANT to gank early. But it's ok to stay back and farm, as long as you're not taking gold from the carries. The worst is a deadwood/pebbles who continuously feeds a pubtrain, then blames his team for not helping out. Don't listen to this guy; he doesn't understand how the game works, and might drag your ENTIRE team down with him.
The train is actually quite a good strategy in the 1400-1500 brackets, and against uncoordinated teams. It works pretty well when you're with a bunch of friends, and your opponents are too busy arguing with each other.