Mid Wars glyph (lack thereof)

[[SALT]Transvestor]

Greetings, friends.

As you can probably tell from the title, this is essentially a Mid Wars thread, which I realise is not supposed to be a competitive game mode. Nonetheless, this does not mean that the mode does not deserve and require balance discussion.

The relatively recent change to Mid Wars wherein the glyph was removed, I understand was essentially designed to make the games quicker. For the most part this change has succeeded in this respect, disregarding games where both teams choose to camp their bases in fear of losing to a backdoor (which are nowhere near uncommon). However, since the change, I can safely say without the use of hyperbole, that at least 80% of the games that I have played (and that's A LOT of games) have ended due to some form of backdooring. While I and my friends/clanmates have developed measures to protect ourselves (everyone buys posthaste, hoards wards for the lategame and sets couriers to patrol routes, couriers with bulwarks/sheepsticks next to shrine, etc), the measures that are actually required to defend a backdoor are quite frankly ridiculous. Were the glyph to be reintroduced, I believe that Mid Wars would be more fair, more fun and overall faster for everybody involved.

In regular non-core mode Mid Wars, the more effective backdoors involve Nymphora teleporting to one of several unwardable locations near either base's shrine. While in core-mode Mid Wars, simply picking any team including a Hellbringer or Pollywog more or less ensures you a victory if they get any measure of farm (essentially, just refresher, but bulwark/geos makes it easier to pull off and nigh-impossible to defend).

Now, I know that there will be some people reading this thinking "lies and slander, Transvestor, you silly lying slanderer". I invite you to take the following steps on Hellbringer.

Start: Mana Battery + scarab + mana pot (don't need heals, life void at lv 2 will be all the heals you need).
1) Arcana (maybe with regular boots/ghosts beforehand, depending on what you're playing against and your own skill)
2) Ghost marchers (if you don't already have them)
3) Finish Resto Stone.

-By now you have more than enough to push down the enemy's first tower if you haven't already gotten it down.

4) Bulwark (you are now capable of backdooring most teams solo and getting their 2nd tower with a very high success rate)
5) Geo's Bane (can be swapped with Bulwark)(If the enemy team is beyond halfway into your side of the map, you can instantly kill their tower+shrine solo)

Buying a Puzzlebox in addition to the items above adds enough dps for Hellbringer to take out a shrine+tower if the enemy team is directly in the middle of the map.

Now, I know that this is not the way that the game was designed to be played, but it is the most effective way to play. Hellbringer is not the only hero with one of these "instant win" conditions (Berserker, Warbeast, Wildsoul, Bramble), which implies that something in the actual game mode is broken, ie: the glyph is gone.

If I were to suggest changes that would both prevent backdooring from being such a devastating strategy and still fufill the original goal of Midwars games playing out quickly, It would be to reintroduce the glyph, with an extra two seconds duration, but with double the cooldown. Without the glyph, the Mid Wars gametype will continue to be a villainous hive of treachery and debauchery.

Questions/comments/discussion GO



tl;dr: Mid Wars is broken, bring back the glyph.

[[TECH]Gorb]

Approved for interest. I will myself reply to this when I have time (so, um, sometime in the next geological eon).

Please keep all comments about the viability of Mid Wars as a competitive mode/Mid Wars not needing balance attention/other such derogatory coments out of this thread, please.

[[f13]`11411181]

I can imagine that Glyph was removed to expedite actually being able to force the game to end without picking a hard carry.

[GregerMoek]

Tip against Hellbringers backdooring, buy Nullfire Blade.

Otherwise I have to agree, any type of backdoor hero wins games in midwars. I have been playing mostly Wildsoul in Midwars and as soon as bear gets Ghost Marchers and some levels you'll start tearing up towers left and right. To top this off I often get a PK to teleport into the enemy base and crush the rax (Creeps are easy to deal with in midwars and it's mostly for the annoyance factor, because no matter how bad-mannered you play in Midwars it can't be reported!).

This is why I prefer midwars on the original map or Watchtower, even if backdooring can be just as abused there as in new midwars there is some protection from it.

Thing is though that Backdooring has been seen as "bad manners", "unfun" and "unfair play" ever since DotA back in 2006, now it's the most effective way to win a "fun-mode map".

[MikeTAR]

Despite this game-mode being labelled “casual and fun etc” it has proven to be a very popular game-mode for all MMR rated player 1300-2000 mmr. Some Pubs are plaing this game mode religiously and are picking certain heroes that synergize well together which isn’t a bad thing as it heavily encourages team-play. For their sake this game-mode should not be neglected from Balance as these players should be able to enjoy this game-mode.

I’d have to agree with OP, the removal of Glyph has almost forced the Public Player Base to play more defensively and turtle with fear of 5 man pushing as there is a high chance that one other hero is running around to back door. Without means of Town Portal you could pretty much be screwed out of a victory you have spent 20 or so minutes working hard for..

While the removal of Glyph may have encouraged this play-style, I don’t think re-adding it solves the issue completely.

I know this isn’t the place for suggestions but please realise I’m not suggesting this is the best way to solve the issue, I just think there could be a better way to cater to this then simply implementing the Glyph of Fortification again.

To resolve the Mid-Wars back-dooring dilemma it could be as simple as implementing the following.

Theory
Let’s say that both shrines are 100% immune
You have a some type of “gate” which spawns after you kill the second tower which spans across the width of the lane.
Once an allied creap wave passes through the enemy “base gate” their shrine is now attackable.
The only way to re-activate your own shrines immunity is to have your own creaps pass through your own gate. (which means you have to kill anything that passes through your gate in order for your creaps to pass back through)

Benefits
This forces a team to complete a genocide before pushing.
It forces defending teams to defend to the point of geocoding the other team or forcing them to pass back through your gate back to there well.
Enemy heroes can no longer back-door if the other team is pushing as the shrine is only active if your allied creaps pass through the enemy gate

^OFC there are obvious flaws with this but this example was to simply say, there are better more effective solutions then just re-adding glyph.

In conclusion, yes I think there is an issue with back-dooring in mid-wars, but I don’t think re-adding Glyph would only prevent a backdoor until it’s on Cooldown again.

[Hubaris]

Honestly, its to stop the game from turning into a 45 minute boring farm fest. The game is generally not enjoyable after a certain point and you may just want to play another game. These strategies are also counterable with items such as Post Haste and Disables. As a player who plays Portal Key Grave with Resto and Daemonic, I've failed numerous times in BDing, despite all the pushing power. One teleport easily changes the tide of the fight, because you are built to destroy buildings whereas your opponent may be built to obliterate gadgets very quickly.

Delaying the game with Glyph isn't fun for the most part. I wouldn't mind Glyph if it wasn't just used to stall the game out another 6 minutes when both teams are running around fully equipped and just trading blows.

[[DRAE]`blackbird`]

Glyph last for what, 5 seconds? And then a 5 minute cooldown?

I don't get how it ruined the fast paced game mode of mid wars in any way. It can force the other team to commit and then lose a big teamfight, turning the game around or prevent a backdoor, the two things that are most game changing in midwars..

[Hubaris]

Yeah but those 5 seconds were able to stop the Tablet of Power, which was made to end the game; which respawns at a much slower rate than Glyph's CD.

[[GaY]Elman1]

Tip against Hellbringers backdooring, buy Nullfire Blade.

I thought this didn't work anymore.

As for Midwars, I think the obvious solution would be to increase respawn timers a little. They don't need to be too long, just long enough that winning a late-game battle actually means something and BDing stops being the only way to win (Unless there's some hardcore snowballing going on).

Making the raxes more useful would be nice too, right now they're usually not worth the effort of destroying them. And the tablet of power could be buffed a little too: its great but it doesn't mean much when your enemies instantly respawn anyway. I'd rather have a Kongor token.

[[SALT]`Mystogan`]

I think the obvious solution would be to increase respawn timers a little.

Did you mean decrease? because i dont think increasing the timers will do anything, I mean an extra second maybe, but the idea of midwars is so that you can be up and ready to fight again in mere seconds. Original midwars would have like a solid 3 minute battle going on with the team continuously respawning at their well. making backdooring, or taking the shrine quite difficult.

Having respawn times any longer would defeat the purpose. I would say the timers are fine at the moment, as once people get beefy a genocide having people down for 6 seconds is long enough to push a tower and even take the shrine.

I realise that me and OP are from the same clan so i may be bias, but i think the extended glyph and longer cooldown would be more effective against backdoor giving you more time to respond if someone trys it.

[[f13]`11411181]

6 seconds is not anywhere near long enough to take out a shrine unless you clean sweep them without loss in a relatively short timeframe (less than 10sec) right next to the shrine.

[Dominare]

I can imagine that Glyph was removed to expedite actually being able to force the game to end without picking a hard carry.

Exactly. Players respawn so fast in this mode that a Glyph could completely negate any push from a won teamfight, meaning a team basically has to beat you convincingly twice within the fort cooldown to actually get anything done. That's not a good idea.

[frogbound]

I personally like Mid Wars, but I stated it a few times already. I still hate getting stomped big time.
The Pub Mid Wars, where there's a 60 minute clashfest was the best thing ever and sometimes people still join the games I host and we have fun.
Why was it fun? Because people could come back after just trying to get a few kills and can even it up. The Mid Wars right now is a 20 minute Slaughterhouse then they finally get annoyed by squashing ur heads in and finally go for the shrine to release you.

"You could just cc" some might say, but it still doesn't record anykind of stats, it's still CM and you can just kill stuff and come back although u might end up giving even more gold to the enemy. BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I PLAYED MID WARS AT FIRST!
But now u can't defend anymore at a certain point, because there is only 2 towers u need to kill and people can just ignore the raxes.
I for myself would love to see the shrine immune untill all towers and the raxes are dead.

[Katieeee]

I don't mind it. I like seeing Puzzlebox used more often, and it's nice to not have Mid Wars just be a carry fest. We sneaky people like to have power too. x)

[``fagatron]

A few things.

1. HB/Malphas has very low deeps, certainly nowhere near Polly/wards. Since S2 games sucks and there is no up-to-date HON information repository, I cannot tell you for certain what either of their deeps are, but I know that the former is much lower than the latter, and is much more easily dealt w/ (Malphas is magic susceptible and has less net EHP than p-wards). I hypothesize that Heebee is no real BD threat.

2. Necronomicon minis do not work with refresher in DotA - they are hardcoded to be destroyed upon respawn from the same book. I do not know if they function the same way in HoN, but if so then they are likely not a wise consideration for a refreshing BD build.

3. Glyph removal makes games faster. This is a good thing. Not that your suggestions are to be ignored - backdooring is an unsuitably strong tactic in emdubs and should be considered.

4. Whatever emdubs is "meant to be" is completely irrelevant. All games are competitive by definition, and none are "more" or "less" competitive than others - only "more" or "less" balanced. Emdubs is objectively a better game than Forests anyway. I am 100% for in-depth consideration of emdubs balance.

[[f13]`11411181]

"Emdubs is objectively a better game than Forests anyway."

I can't wait to hear why.

[[FreZ]WillSage]

[QUOTE=``fagatron;15276892]A few things.

" 1. HB/Malphas has very low deeps

2. w/ (Malphas is magic susceptible and has less net EHP than p-wards). I hypothesize that Heebee is no real BD threat. "


Just to throw some actual info out there.

In optimal conditions next to shrine hellbringer can kill the shrine in just over 10 seconds. (10.4) Items used: Refresher, Steam boots, Demonic, Puzzlebox lvl 2, Geos, Abysall Skull. these items are nearly always easily attainable in midwars.

As you can see this is clearly enough "deeps" to put HB as a real BD threat. In terms of EHP: Each malphas has 1500 hp and HB has 2200 with these items.

I'm sure polly wards are another valid example.

For reference: From the middle of the river in the middle of the lane it takes a forsaken with ghost marchers and geos 9.8 seconds to get within range of the hellbringer entourage. (Assuming ghosts are off cd and are used on the run and no blocking by creeps or heroes occurs)

[Ryuusan]

I understand why they took glyph out, but I often feel a little cheated by how easy it is to take down shrine.

Perhaps compromise? Reinstate glyph, but instead of super armor/invulnerability, make it give a modest armor bonus instead. Or have it taper from +99999. This will make it slightly harder/longer to kill, but not prolong the inevitable.

[Synchronize]

buy wards. also after your enemy slays transmutenstein, expect an incoming backdoor.

[PzKw]

Tested hb bd, workable, but clear that bd is the problem not hb. Maliken almost did it to us in a similar time frame in the same game.