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He was using your definition of DPS.Originally Posted by PrimalApe
You stated "time X damage = DPS" - you said that. Ergo he said "with your piece of math(s)" because the maths was yours. Which, as he pointed out, makes no sense.
Instead of ignoring people, insulting them and calling them bad, perhaps you should double-check your own posts in future before hitting the Submit button. Better still, cut out the insults entirely.
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I don't get why admins insisted on closing the GD thread about MK and moving the discussion here. It reads more like a rage thread than a balance thread. In other words, GD material.
"Proclamation was made, in the King's Name, for all Persons to keep Silence" - House of Lords Journal, Volume 20, 24 June 1717
I agree fully!
I have hardly ever played MK in MM, played a few no stats and plenty in practice mode (call me a nuffy)
The mobility that he has I think is key, with enough farm (he hasnt lost his flash farm potential) he can still put out decent DPS.
I personally feel after playing him quite a bit before and now after is that his presence is gone with team fights and ganks, they are just not as effective anymore as they used to be. His lane presence is still okay though in the mid due to harassment to get them low then zone in for the kill. Personally I liked his old combo for various reasons, it did decent damage along with locking the enemy player down and it was hella fun dang it! I have now tried different variants of the combo from the old to a newer form and to be honest... I felt like I died a little inside. Enemy players can now escape mid combo such as valk or chronos (anything with a stun or escape mechinic really) and the thrills of the before combo and now are gone... even in team fights now he is a lot easier to shut down due to the non canceling of the first vault making him easier to shut down. I hope he gets changed back so I can have good times with him again.
Completely 100% agree with thisSo as a conclusion:
This was a terrible idea to begin with. S2 made a bad and lazy decision, comparable only with DM nerfs. It was obviously influenced by a massive amount of WHINE from noobs who can't counter/outplay a decent MK player. They couldn't play that hero themselves since it required a decent amount of apm, reaction and map awareness. I think we will see nerfs for Nomad, Fayde and other burst heroes in the nearest future, because noobs will start whining about them being OP too.
The most frustrating part is: S2 continues to create trash-heroes for "early-access purposes", MK was the only great and really unique hero since early access was introduced (it's my opinion ofc). Look at Rally (Deadwood copy, with more utility), look at all those trash heroes like Shadowblade, Blitz, etc. Ofcourse a good player can pick Blitz/Shadowblade and be good with it, but it's really really rare. So instead of reworking their old "abortions" S2 keeps creating more and more of those and occasionally destroying really unique heroes with their "lazy patches".
Last edited by Kartious; 08-21-2012 at 07:16 AM.
I will have some use of you
I thought when mk was released and he had that glitch damage and it got nerfed. that mk would be useless.
what ended up happening from that again?
he still got played and was still very strong right?
Ha. these forums. these players
If you want to combo players at level 3 you only got one level in Heavenly Vault or skipped 1 level in dash. If you skipped skilling dash you actually cant combo the most heroes except they are trying to harass you in close combat range. And if you did skill all your spells once you can't deal 75% of his max Hp as damage at level 3 except you are autohitting him while he just makes nothing. My point is you can't even oneshot the most heroes with lvl 4 where you got 2 levels in Vault usually you can do now take around 75% of his HP if you hit him perfectly with your combo, dash and a couple of auto hits.
I'm pretty sure that nobody or nearly nobody said that he won't be played ever again after that and most people was happy with that change because it was a glitch and not a part of the hero like canceling his second skill with his slam.
Last edited by KeY533; 08-21-2012 at 07:18 AM.
HoN needs an ingame tournament function like in Wc3 / Bloodline Champions
That logic does not work forever... If you nerf something time and again, it will become less and less viable.
Crawl back to the pit that spawned you!
Lets twist the truth, act smart and play games! Anyone with half a brain got my point so it's fine. Also, trolls are trolls and I call it the way I see it. I'm not going to stand around and let bad players agree with a nerf based at reducing MK skillcap just because they COULDN'T MK. Every point i've said has been valid, nobody has challenged or debunked any of my statements. I stand here correct.
I'm sure if you were good at this game, and really liked a hero you might feel the same way.
The vast majority of trolls that agree with the nerf have (themselves), stated that they didn't play or weren't good with the hero. Somebody that doesn't have enough experience with something should NOT be commenting on what they think should be changed about said item. There have been many MK players echoing their feeling for the hero, and the fact is, we all share the same view - the hero was ruined for no real reason other then crying.
At the end of all this, and the TRUTH, is that MK was never a top tier competitive hero (meaning it wasn't GOOD compared to other choices). Now nerfs and buffs should be based on top tier players and competitions, to encourage the use of weaker heroes through buffs, and discourage the use of strong/OP heroes through nerfs - this is usually how things are balanced. How does this nerf make any sense when it comes to Comp viability when MK was barely played?
Rest my case.
Last edited by PrimalApe; 08-21-2012 at 07:58 AM.
the changes suck big time the extra seconds on vault doesnt matter the combo is to slow since u have to watch the full vault animation.
u cant like mentioned before lock down blinking heroes like u could every dummie can avoid or interrupt his "combo" now.
the combo isnt a combo anymore i just dont feel right. u guys could have serious just remove that 63 extra dmg from a perfect combo instead of ruining the only unique fun hero in this game.
i mean the canceling the vault with slam was not only to get those 63extra dmg it helped to position urself so u could do ur thing.
if a melee attacks a tower and u want to def it before the patch u could vault the tower cancel with slam right after so u hit the melee and finish ur combo.
now since ucant cancel u end up behind the melee then u have to turn around to hit the slam wich is kinda meh....
there a plentys of scenarios like this where u NEEDED to cancel vault so u end up in a good position and not miles away that extra second dont help it.
please s2 just remove the 63 dmg from a perfect combo pre patch and lets play mk the way he was ment to play.
throwing aboard the whole playstyle and fun that hero had is just sad!
Look at this guy, contradicting himself left and right. Moreover, the most depressing part is that he completely fails at the most simple piece of math in the HISTORY OF GAMING RELATED MATHEMATICS.
Cute way of dodging any type of simple logic and basic understanding by saying "didn't read after you owned me"(in other words), a concept that is hard for you to grasp I bet.
Sorry, tryhard, but your definition of how to calculate DPS is ****ed up, wrong, and hilarious. "Badz will be badz" haha, I'm quite sure you spend at least 10 minutes trying to figure out things like how to put a ball in a cup in your spare time, now that your shift-queue W-E-W won't work anymore (which probably took you more than three months to figure out).
Just in case you forgot your own way of calculating dps, here cometh another quote, mad, mad, frustrated monkey king player.
LOLOLOL YOU ACTUALLY WROTE THAT.
Furthermore, you are inable to read, this message proves it. Look at the messages you quoted, you don't read them. You saw one sentence and thought the whole message was about that, well that just shows how bad you are at anything related to forums, or anything at all for that matter. I clearly said "with YOUR definition of DPS, more time means more damage" which is an incredibly laughable, messed up and moronic thing to say (hint: you said it yourself). This just further proves that you're just another 12 year old who learned what shift-queue was and then thought it was skill.
Please let yourself enter education for people with special needs, I would deeply recommend it before you comment anywhere on any forum, because with your reading and mathematic skills you shouldn't be commenting anywhere, especially not here. You'll just confuse people that don't understand how misguided and bad you are. Young padawan and small son.
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With that out of the way... (replying to your post in your own fashion, because you don't know anything else)
Funny way of ignoring my main points in my post about E-W-W. Just shows you that the only MK trick in the book you know is W-E-W.
Most of the people agree with you because that was also the only combo they knew themselves. That is actually a fact, if we use your definition of fact. Some people don't like it because it is one option gone from his way of combining skills, but MOST(most = not all, but the majority - in case you didn't know) hate it because their shift-queue is gone, don't kid anyone.
I've never stated what I actually think of the change myself, except that it was an obvious buff to W and another obvious nerf to it. Thing is, if the feature was not intended in the first place I'm sure S2 have been working for a while now to find a way to remove this unintended feature of the ability. They just didn't find time to implement it yet or maybe they had other things going for them at the time and let this feature stay since it wasn't affecting competitive HoN to a major degree, untill recently at least.
The thing about MK as a concept is that he has multiple ways to combo that are just forgotten when people learn one combo and uses that all the time instead of the myriad of possibilities in his skillset to create combos fit for each situation. Before the change, W-E-W was basically -the- combo. Effectively dumbing him down even if he has 'more options' with it. He will never use those options anyway if one option is always or next to always the most dominant option.
I played a lot of MK and I did use that combo a lot, it is fairly stupid to say though that anyone who can agree with the change must be a bad MK player. This is ENTIRELY a subjective opinion, not an opinion based on "skill". Not every skilled MK liked the combo, if you say that then you're just stupid beyond words. With one ISSUE with MK away (Not the fact that he was hard to kill, the fact that an unintended feature that limited his gameplay more than people say because of outperforming nearly every single other combo) one can look at buffing other, INTENDED PARTS of the hero.
Last edited by GregerMoek; 08-21-2012 at 08:46 AM.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
Definitely should have changed the damage and not the combo. MK WAS one of the favorites.
I almost never used the standard " shift queue-combo " and never the less the hero is ruined for me now...
<3
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It was the incorrect thread type for General Discussion. Thus, it was locked there. There was a balance change to MK in a recent patch, so discussion was started here. This is what the Balance Discussion subforum is for.
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If you didn't use the shift queue combo, the hero is exactly the same for you dumb ****, in fact it's better, you now have more time to vault the second time.
I thought the Era of Monkey King was over until I actually practiced some in Practice Mode (duh) and found out that you still could combo, just that it was a tad harder. I'm still happy and this would be considered a slight buff when you learn how to combo. I am actually happy now that I understand how they "fixed" MK<3 S2 knows their stuff.
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...d.php?t=102574 - Pebbles' Combo Sequence: The Mystery Unraveled
What a mongoloid, clueless and trying to smart like a smartass. You do realize that BOTH methods relied on basically cancelling the animation of vault, thus forcing the animation to be fully completed negates both methods.
No duh. Which is why "I almost never used the standard " shift queue-combo " and never the less the hero is ruined for me now..." is a perfectly appropriate phrase for someone who manual-cancels.
I like the change of MK.
1 second added to second vault is so great, you can do LOAD of stuff between vaults. MK is still fun to play, (maybe not for smurfs, but smurfs are blue and stinks so who cares about them) and ofcourse will be pain in an arse to play against.
Still -> high mobility, good stat growth, good scalling with q
Hon is a team based game, no hero should have a 100% chance of killing someone by mastering a combo without any chance of failing, and without other items.
MK has too much of everything, you don't need a pk, you already have dash.
The fact that you're basically complaining about not being able to kill Chronos or Valk show's the flaw in the attitude of a lot of MK players. Before this nerf, once you'd master his combo all you needed to do was get reletively close to any hero (again not hard with ghost marchers and dash and his ultimate) and if you've mastered the combo it's 100% free kill 1v1 situation.
Name another hero that can do that guarenteed with just ghost marchers and a bottle? There isn't one. Sure deadwood can, but he's slow and has to land his root in the first place. Pebbles and DW both rely heavily on PK, a 2150g item.
MK does the same damage and has better escape and late game without that 2150g...
Sorry, that's not balanced. No hero should have this "potential" power based on the ability master a few button combo and have decent reaction "twitch" timing.
Pebbles combo requires you to literally be on top of the person, which is very hard to do without a PK.
DWs ult has a CD so he's limited to how often he can free kill people.
Sorry what are the CD's on MKs abilties ? His Ultimate? Oh wait he doesn't have one, yet still puts out the similar amounts of damage while remaining mobile.
DW + Pebbles, spend 2150g on an item that allows them to use their spells efficiently. MK doesn't need this, so while other they spend lots of money on being able to use their combos on heroes. MK spends 2k on Sols B. which increases the damage of his combo which he's already free try on anyone who crosses his path with barely any risk unless it happens to be 3 heroes considering 1 will die anyway if he lands his pre-nerf combo correctly which you basically can't stop unless you happen to be a ninja.
He was too strong in the hands of a good player. That is a problem, it means the reward to skill cap ratio is not inline with the other heroes that have the same kind of concept in this game i.e pebbles etc.
Pebbles isn't hard, but you cannot run around instagibbing everyone in the universe and know you'll escape with marchers and a bottle. Countered by any kind of cc and a 400g item.
MK is countered by 2 heroes holding your hands at all time, ward all over the map and someone buying a SolB for the team.
It doesn't matter. He can't cancel vault and that leaves him way to vulnerable when pulling off any combo. Not only was his offensive ability nerfed, but also his defensive escape methods (no dash mid vault). If you face any team that has experience with the past MK, you're just gonna get stomped. You cannot combo fast enough without the enemy moving and ruining your combo, or getting CC'd because you're stuck flying like a fairy in the air. He's too slow now, and speed was his strength against good teams.Monkey king got a big nerf but there are two combos still yet in the game. You just gotta find them
Reduction in gameplay options with MK = skillcap nerf.
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