My friends can't take a bit of constructive criticism

[[E]Danisimo]

Hello. This isn't the perfect place for this thread but i don't think there's a better section for it.
It's going to be a long post so unless you have something useful to say don't bother reading at all.

I play with some friends in the 1500 bracket and we're working on improving our game and having fun. I try to be as helpful as possible and when i spot one of them making a mistake i try to point it out subtly and i expect them to do the same to me. We all know that noticing mistakes is always easier when you're watching someone then when you're actually playing.
I'm not claiming that I'm pro. If i was I'd be 1900 not 1500 but I am good at some things and they are at other things. When I see them doing something that i know is wrong I tell them and suggest that they try another strategy but mostly the result is stupid excuses and when they can no longer come up with excuses the response is "well maybe i should just afk at the fountain so i don't die." followed by rage on TS.
I'm guessing they have self esteem issues and view themselves as very good players because that's just not reasonable. Whenever a mentor or hell even a regular player makes a normal comment on my play style and suggest something I give it some consideration. I compare it to what I've been doing so far. I try it out, see how things work and decide which the better approach is. With them things don't work that way. I literally have to prove to them that what i say is better than what they do. Like we had to get stomped around 10 times by people who tp when you dive their tower until they finally started buying tps. And hell I still buy tp twice as more to their aid than they do to mine.
This really hurts our games. Take our most recent one for example:
Devo(random):15/11/13
whichslayerfriend):4/11/22
flint(me):14/3/16
behe(random):5/10/16
voodoo(friend):5/13/15

Do you see something wrong with these stats? If those were deaths from saving me or other players that would be fine but most of these deaths were just stupid. Devo and behe were feeling suicidal and decided to go roam the enemy jungle even though we don't have a single ward in there. Ok, they won't listen to reason why not just let them die? No they have to go to "help" them and give even more kills. There's like NO reason to be in their jungle since they don't even have a jungler you can gank. Without vision why would you do such a risky move?
Another example. All our towers were down and the enemy was pushing and VJ decided to go ward the temple thingy near the observatory which in itself was a good idea BUT he decided to do it while everyone was missing and he went alone. Guess what. The enemy team was preparing for a push top. He walked right into them and died. When i tried to suggest that he shouldn't go alone i got the "maybe i should afk so i don't die response."
Most games with them supporting end up with 10+ deaths and their excuse is that they played support. It's like the supports are expected to feed.
I am also not perfect i make mistakes. Like after Team Fight mid both teams lost 2 players we we're low on health and mana so we backed. I took a good look at the enemy team before going back and saw everyone on full hp but i guess at that point glac was in the fog and i didn't see that he was low and did not ulti him. I did i a few sec later but at that point his labe was off cd and he healed a bit and survived with 100 hp. I know that was my mistake, so i apologized took the responsibility for it but the words "sorry that was my mistake" have NEVER come from their mouths and i mean NEVER.
When i make a mistake or die i asses the situation, think what i can do next time to prevent that from happening and work on improving. They on the other hand see deaths or lost team fights as inevitable. They don't consider what they could have done better. What happened or try to fix it. "I died while warding? Oh well nothing more i could have done." "I died without using any spells in that team fight? Well there was nothing i could do tempest ultied me." The question "Why did tempest ulti me?" does not come to them.
I just don't know how to reach them without offending them. We need to work on our game together not act like we won DreamHoN.


TL;DR. Friends can't accept constructive criticism, how would you suggest I make them understand their mistakes without angering them.

[Katieeee]

Just joke about how bad they are. If your friends are not open to constructive criticism, at least let them know in a humorous way that the way they're playing and thinking the game isn't good enough, even for 1500 tier.

Edit - You can also watch replays of losses with your friends maybe the next day. Invite each other on Skype, TS3, or w/e, and go over a game with each other. Usually looking at a game later, it's easier to take criticism for mistakes made. :P

[[SK5]Pwn]

I'm 100% sure you do the exact same thing. Also you sound mad.

[[iAPM]TattyJangles]

Play with different people. I played with people like this, and it pissed me of and I lost a lot of games, so I played with different people.

[Katieeee]

If you disagree with someone's post, please refrain from calling them out in any way that'll be off-topic.

But I agree with both of your replies. Maybe the TS may be showing the same thinking process at times and that may be where his friends get that mindset to just think it's OK to not look at mistakes in a different dimension and playing with others could definitely also show your friends that you're looking for people who may think and play differently, so they may consider that.

[Jenova26]

Real life friends are always more difficult to play with than random, in-game buddies for this exact reason. Some people want to be better players, some don't. I have a few IRL friends that I play with often and they both have their highs and lows and strengths and weaknesses, but one of them refuses to take ANY criticism or help. He simply doesn't care that he's a 1450 player. My other buddy doesn't really care if he gets good at the game, but he's open to criticism sometimes.

The hard part is figuring out when it's necessary to say something, when it's smart to say something, and when I should just keep my mouth shut. Generally speaking, the best time, I've found, to make constructive critiques is when they do something well or make the point at the beginning of the game. Telling someone that they did something wrong after they get killed is a bad idea since it makes you sound holier-than-thou and like you're rubbing their noses in it. Even if you have the best intentions, sometimes it's best to say nothing.

This same manner of thinking applies to your normal games with randoms as well. Though, it is still more touchy when you're dealing with friends. I'm not sure why this is exactly (I am not a psych major or anything), but I beleive it has to do with your buddies expecting you to back their decision as their friend.

Personally, I have separate accounts for friends and for solo-queue.

[qwqtgwy]

Telling someone that they did something wrong after they get killed is a bad idea since it makes you sound holier-than-thou and like you're rubbing their noses in it. Even if you have the best intentions, sometimes it's best to say nothing.

This is true, even when you may be right, having someone next to you telling you what is wrong and what is not can be annoying no matter what intentions you have you can sound like a smartass, even more if you are angry and still if you try to hide it. Stress in this game is reeeeeeeeeally common, some people deal healthily with it, some others not. However, that is just the way to be for some people.

[Doorgymguy]

Your friends are witch slayer and vodoo, i'm sure if you did the warding and let your friends farm instead of yourself you'd have alot more deaths. As you said constructive criticism, Your most played heroes are all farmers, and you average the ck you should have in 10minutes, at 30 minute mark, maybe you're playing the wrong role?

I'm not having a dig at you, just my 2 cents don't take it the wrong way

[[E]Danisimo]

Nah its cool. I do play a decent bit of support its just that since i don't focus on a single hero i have a few games with each and if i suddenly decide i'm going to focus on one role and play like 10 games doing so they pop up in my most played. Example i haven't played cracken in weeks but he's my number one most played i think. Stats aren't all that accurate either because for the first 500 games i was learning the basic rules of the game.
You people made it sound like i'm like raging at them. When i see them doing something i FEEL is wrong i suggest something like "maybe you should stick with us so you're not in so much danger."Or "Can you try to stay out of line of sight until it's time to initiate."
I like i said i don't mind taking criticism myself. I like being told at what I'm bad because it helps me realize it faster then when i have to discover it for myself. Like for the first 4 months of the game i thought that thread swapping was useless. Now not only do i do it every game but the ability to do so is one of the reasons why i some times chose threads over other boots. Depending on the hero and situation of course.
Anyway. Thanks katieee. I like your idea the most. Joking about it and offering to watch replays on the next day seems like a very nice way to help them take a clear look at what they do and to see some of my misplays as well because they are plentiful.
Even though i tried to make it as clear as possible some of you still think that i think I'm super good and that they are scrubs. I don't think i know more than them OR that I am better than them. The only thing i claim is that i DO know some stuff and I would like to share that knowledge with my friends without having the go trough what i did in order to learn what I have. After all smart people learn from each others mistakes dumb people learn only from their mistakes.

[[E]Rhayne]

They sound like they have that "unwillingness comfort attitude". These type of friends are likely to hold you back if you're seriously trying to improve
your gameplay towards a competitive mindset that is. Either make them realize that they're not as good as they think the are and should listen to you, or get rid of them. while It is true that hon possess a rather ignorant/unfriendly community, so is that resolve I mentioned above.

[[E]Danisimo]

They sound like they have that "unwillingness comfort attitude". These type of friends are likely to hold you back if you're seriously trying to improve
your gameplay towards a competitive mindset that is. Either make them realize that they're not as good as they think the are and should listen to you, or get rid of them. while It is true that hon possess a rather ignorant/unfriendly community, so is that resolve I mentioned above.

Well that would imply that i am better than them. Which I don't think I am. I simply wish to work on stuff like our team works because we get stomped badly by other decent teams. There's a huge difference when we play as a team of 5 or as 2,3 max. In the second scenario we usually stomp the uncoordinated randoms where as we get trashed by other full teams which are much more coordinated than us.

[LukDeRiff]

"Before the army's watering hole has been reached, the commander does not speak of thirst; before the fires have food on them the commander does not speak of hunger"

- Sun Tzu, The Art of Warfare

Do not talk about the problems, your friends either know that they made a mistake or they think the didn't make one. Either way it will not help when you are in the heat of a game.

Talk about solutions. When your friends get picked of in the forest don't tell them it was wrong to wander of alone into the enemy forest. Tell them to stick together, put wards up and watch the map a bit more carefully.

Do not get personal. They will just mindlessly rage at you not matter what you say.

Show them respect if they play well. A "Nice!" or "Good Job" or "Awesome ult" can really help to keep the motivation high.

Make clear what you want to achieve. If you want to be a 1900 player and your friends are happy playing in the 1500s then they will just not have the morivation to improve as much as you. They will also not understand why you "are so hard on them".

And accept that some people just do not listen no matter what you do.