[2.6.14] Soulstealer Soulburst

[[S2]MacroHard]

Use this thread for HOW it works:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?442417

Use this thread in balance discussion forum to discuss its ramifications.

GO!

[[eR]Ekamo]

Approved.

Macro covered all bases mechanics-wise, so I strongly suggest that you read that prior to engaging in this discussion. What has been gained and what has been lost from this change? Is this desirable for the game?

Forum rules apply as always.

[foxmindedguy]

I personally think it is awesome that S2 is going more towards Predictability of damage outcomes (and removing randomness). Ahem, adhere to my signature for normalizing Flint next

[Hubaris]

I feel that against a coordinated team, the Killzone burst isn't too reliable (although its still there in its new 1500 damage from); so the chnages overall bolster his teamfight damage and really solidify him as a spellcasting/damage carry. His now reliable Soul Burst grants the slow and damage reduction at a more consistent rate, giving him a great followup potential and setting up more hands/causing havoc.

I felt originally that it just turned into another AOE spell, but its really not the case.

The Solid Number + Souls is very nice and helps a hero who relies heavily on a mechanic which can totally cripple the hero.

Overall a great change.

[[f13]zstarkey42]

No more loloneshots at point-blank range - if that's what made the hero fun to you then too bad... Seems like a good change to me. It's good that he can at least deal some meaningful damage to everyone in fights now.

[[STLI]Doomhammar]

Its funny the amount of retards that turn up in threads like these lol

You seem to be one of them. If you have no real constructive criticism just don't post.

Normalization was good for the ult. Formerly you could hope and get that perfect ult where everyone in the middle of the Soulburst and kill everything or enemies just walked a bit and it was a fart. Now you can actually deal reliable damage with ultimate instead of it being roll of the dice. I can see no point for reversing this change, as consistency has been the S2's direction of balance.

[[S2]ElementUser]

The thing that I (as well as the other S2) didn't like about the old ult was that if you're a few pixels off of the enemy unit when you're in close range (say, between 0-200 range), you deal drastically less damage that isn't consistent and the mathematical function decays extremely rapidly between a few pixels/units, as shown by MacroHard's old ult graph: http://i.imgur.com/V5pFD.png

Now if you're a few pixels off, you deal less damage - but at a reasonable rate of change as distance increases. The mathematical function does not decay as rapidly and thus, you don't lose like 500+ damage if you're off by like, 50 units (or to put it in perspective, a few pixels)

[[S2]MacroHard]

After looking at those graphs again... Its a nerf. It needs to be reversed.
SS is one of those few carries who is squishy and and has no escape. This ulti was the one great things about him and now its been normalized.

Now, a level 3 ulti can't cause that massive damage that it used to do before. What's more importing? Killing two people out of 5 with your ulti or just get 4 outta 5 to half health?

We could not find a single replay at the competitive level where a Soulstealer got the 2400 damage off. Not one. The proximity required was a near impossibility considering the long cast time. All of the times where a Soulstealer killed somebody instantly with his ult, that we observed, were within the very-close-but-not-quite ~1400 damage zone. I would be baffled and impressed if you can find a replay even at low-tier levels where a Soulstealer hit not one but TWO heroes with 2400 as you claim. =)

The damage is significantly higher between 50 and 600 range... the range where most ults occur. We also decided to nerf the ability beyond 600 range; we felt this ability should reward positioning and not deal 300+ damage at 800 range.

That being said, the biggest balance change is that the ult is now only 80% reliable on souls, with 20% of the damage being fixed. This further (slightly) reduces Soulstealer's dependency on max souls.

The biggest balance question:
"Have we buffed him too much?"

[TheEnigma]

I'm in a game right now.. With SS. Even made a PK because shroud didn't really make much sense (though I now have both a Genjuro and a PK).

I'm up against Hag, EW, Silo etc.

NOT ONCE have I been able to ONE SHOT them. Not one of them.

====

Just jumped in between a teamfight. Melted. Couldn't even survive the ulti cast time lol

===

The thing is, you guys have given the hero no escape, no nothing, but you nerfed his ulti. Or as you like to say NORMALIZED his ulti.
Point is, he now has the potential to deal max 1500 dmg instead of 2400. A pyromancer can deal 1150 with ZERO SKILL. More than 1500 if you add his stun and wave.

[foxmindedguy]

I'm in a game right now.. With SS. Even made a PK because shroud didn't really make much sense (though I now have both a Genjuro and a PK).

I'm up against Hag, EW, Silo etc.

NOT ONCE have I been able to ONE SHOT them. Not one of them.

====

Just jumped in between a teamfight. Melted. Couldn't even survive the ulti cast time lol

===

The thing is, you guys have given the hero no escape, no nothing, but you nerfed his ulti. Or as you like to say NORMALIZED his ulti.
Point is, he now has the potential to deal max 1500 dmg instead of 2400. A pyromancer can deal 1150 with ZERO SKILL. More than 1500 if you add his stun and wave.

Pyromancer deals 1150 to one person. Soulstealer can do more to entire teams, just put Flux and Riftwalker in your team.

[[HoNA]Food]

Normalization at distance was good, but the cap on damage at the centre I feel was not really warranted. Seeing as the 2400 damage in the "rape circle" was seldom seen, why remove it? It doesn't seem a big enough dilemma to warrant a removal. Removing all elements of luck makes games rather formulaic and doesn't promote HoN as an exciting spectator sport. In competitive play a well placed ultimate is hardly ever seen, so this is a buff, but it feels likethis change is shifting the emphasis from his ultimate towards his other skillsets.

I feel like Soulstealer does need a few buffs to compensate for his lowered damage on his ultimate at close range. I'm not one qualified to speculate on what those buffs should be; but perhaps a buff to the number of souls available, or the reduction of the mana costs on his razes back down to 75, or even just a tweak to strength gain and base strength coupled with a slight movement speed buff, heck maybe even another 10 - 15 damage on his razes.

[[TTGL]Seveah]

If I fail to single-shot even a single hero, I'm done. Enough's enough.

The point of the game isn't to one-shot anybody by standing next to them. You're contributing far more to your team by dealing 1500 aoe damage than you are by dealing 2400 single target damage, and here's the important part, that wasn't guaranteed to hit. If you die because you brought 4 out of 5 heroes to half health, then your team wasn't backing you up to round out and finish off the fight. You don't win 1v4 or 1v5.

[[S2]MacroHard]

Couldn't even survive the ulti cast time lol

To be fair this complaint has zero to do with the mechanics change.

[TheEnigma]

^ That wasn't guaranteed to hit for 2400. It did more than enough damage.Remember, 1500 is Magic Damage, not superior or anything.

[[S2]ElementUser]

^ That wasn't guaranteed to hit for 2400. It did more than enough damage.Remember, 1500 is Magic Damage, not superior or anything.

Read his post again - if you couldn't even survive before you finish casting your ult, then it means that the ult never even got to do any damage. This implies that the mechanics change had 0 influence on that situation.

[[eR]Ekamo]

The thing that I (as well as the other S2) didn't like about the old ult was that if you're a few pixels off of the enemy unit when you're in close range (say, between 0-200 range), you deal drastically less damage that isn't consistent and the mathematical function decays extremely rapidly between a few pixels/units, as shown by MacroHard's old ult graph: http://i.imgur.com/V5pFD.png

Now if you're a few pixels off, you deal less damage - but at a reasonable rate of change as distance increases. The mathematical function does not decay as rapidly and thus, you don't lose like 500+ damage if you're off by like, 50 units (or to put it in perspective, a few pixels)

I don't really think anyone is opposed to this specific aspect, since this in fact, a great change.

What can be argued though is if the direction that was taken with the damage was the correct one to go.
The way I see it:
I would have wanted Soulstealer to retain his extremely strong ultimate at very close range while still going through with the overall mechanics changes on this skill. Having this type of ultimate shapes his (and his team's) entire playstyle, and promotes several positive things:

• More focus on perfect positioning, since it improves a more active playstyle rather than "I'll just put it somewhere in the vicinity of the opposing hero and he'll take pretty much the same damage as a perfect ultimate anyway". It should be rewarding to focus on your positioning, and the same way, very penalizing when you don't perform well. Even if you don't hit this "perfect spot" the majority of the times there should still be a possibility of doing so, because that creates an incentive to land it more carefully (!), and thus promotes the following as well:
• Creates more options in terms of item pickups. As much as Assassins Shroud is not core on him by any means, I think it should stay as a viable alternative to PK, if not for anything else but for versatility's sake. This has been not yet been tested competitively though since the introduction of Genjuro so now we will never now just how good it would have been. The unit-walking aspect could also be attained by using Energizer or even possibly by future heroes having such a skill, and now that option is removed. Reducing effectiveness of "rape circle" will effectively make Assassins Shroud pretty much (even more) useless in comparison to Portal Key and will thus reduce options provided for the hero.
• Makes him a powerful combo in certain line-ups, Tempest comes to mind here among several other heroes. The more he can capitalize on comboing with certain heroes, the more it promotes active and mindful picking as well as good teamwork. Even though he stills greatly benefits from having a Tempest on his team, he can now deal high damages to several enemy heroes with only minor help from the tons of AoE slows and stuns there are in the game.

I can definitely see where MacroHard and ElementUser (among others) are coming from from when they overall perceive these as positive changes. It makes it less of an anomaly in terms of what a skill in this game should be able damage, and it makes it a more effective skill when you land a "good" (note: Not supergood) ultimate, and as such promoting a little more careful positioning of the skill in the ranges somewhere in between melee range and 600 range. What it does not do though - and I cannot stress this enough - it does not reward exact placement of the skill, and as such creates a disincentive to acquire any type of unitwalking, to have communication between you and a teammate to carefully set it up, and to be able to do balls to the walls plays where a slight misjudgment might be extremely detrimental for you and your team, but where a perfect play might win you the game.

Furthermore, looking at this objectively without the design in mind I think it's pretty safe to say that this was a buff. The question we should be asking ourselves though is: Was that needed since he was already picked up in the competitive scene successfully (tDM) and if it was, at the expense of the previous mechanics of the ulti?

[Antimodus]

We could just add 900 (or whatever) magic damage in like 125/150 AOE on top of the existing formula to maintain that killzone. I don't play SS myself, but I always thought this feature of his ult was badass.

TBH from just looking at the damage/range graphs, as far as I can tell, for most practical purposes the ult has been overall buffed. I mean aside from the supernuking of one hero with invis thing.

[[RC2W]Omega]

We could just add 900 (or whatever) magic damage in like 125/150 AOE on top of the existing formula to maintain that killzone. I don't play SS myself, but I always thought this feature of his ult was badass.

24 AOE, actually. Seems unnecessary, and would complicate things without reason.

[greenman101]

Huge buff to his mid game - maybe too much of a buff if he gets a decent exp lead over the enemy. However, this is a nerf to his late game. While attaining the 2400 damage mega ult seemed unrealistic, I feel like 1800-2000 damage was doable and happened often to at least ONE hero. Would be nice if we can get that back to some degree so that a late game Ra or other fed Str hero with a bunch of health items can be shut down. Right now, this seems borderline OP with a Tempest in the mid game but very weak in the later game. Any hero with a heart can pretty much just ignore the ult.

I realize that some people are like "omg he does 1500 damage to the entire team its already OP" but those people need to keep in mind that you can't even effectively utilize the ult on this hero without buying a 2150g or 3300g item. No other hero in the game suffers from this handicap and it is only fitting that the ult is game defining under the circumstances.

[[RCT]Reldnahc]

Huge buff to his mid game - maybe too much of a buff if he gets a decent exp lead over the enemy. However, this is a nerf to his late game. While attaining the 2400 damage mega ult seemed unrealistic, I feel like 1800-2000 damage was doable and happened often to at least ONE hero. Would be nice if we can get that back to some degree so that a late game Ra or other fed Str hero with a bunch of health items can be shut down. Right now, this seems borderline OP with a Tempest in the mid game but very weak in the later game. Any hero with a heart can pretty much just ignore the ult.

I realize that some people are like "omg he does 1500 damage to the entire team its already OP" but those people need to keep in mind that you can't even effectively utilize the ult on this hero without buying a 2150g or 3300g item. No other hero in the game suffers from this handicap and it is only fitting that the ult is game defining under the circumstances.

Magmus
Behemoth
Tempest

I like this change overall. I always felt the old version had some wonky mechanics that are touched up in this change.