Gender Binaries

[Beanybag]

Well, here it is again. I'll be using another article to help illustrate my points. The article is quite good despite it listing off almost NONE OF ITS SOURCES. Terrible journalist. But it still says what it needs to. Article is here.

I'm going to list some quotes from the article that I felt were especially powerful, although I still would like it if people would read the whole thing first. I relate very strongly with the kids in this article.

“It might make your world more tidy to have two neat and separate gender possibilities,” one North Carolina mother wrote last year on her blog, “but when you squish out the space between, you do not accurately represent lived reality. More than that, you’re trying to ‘squish out’ my kid.”

Relatively little research on gender-nonconforming children has been conducted, making it impossible to know how many children step outside gender bounds — or even where those bounds begin. Studies estimate that 2 percent to 7 percent of boys under age 12 regularly display “cross-gender” behaviors, though very few wish to actually be a girl. What this foretells about their future is hard to know. By age 10, most pink boys drop much of their unconventional appearance and activities, either because they outgrow the desire or subsume it. The studies on what happens in adulthood to boys who strayed from gender norms all have methodological limitations, but they suggest that although plenty of gay men don’t start out as pink boys, 60 to 80 percent of pink boys do eventually become gay men. The rest grow up to either become heterosexual men or become women by taking hormones and maybe having surgery. Gender-nonconforming behavior of girls, however, is rarely studied, in part because departures from traditional femininity are so pervasive and accepted. The studies that do exist indicate that tomboys are somewhat more likely than gender-typical girls to become bisexual, lesbian or male-identified, but most become heterosexual women.

Moriko’s son will soon enter eighth grade in his Long Island public middle school. Most of his friends are girls, and he dresses just like them: skinny jeans, black eyeliner, light lipstick and off-the-shoulder shirts from the girls’ department. (Moriko makes him wear a tank top underneath.) When his teachers asked which pronoun they should use when referring to him, he said masculine. But he doesn’t want to be called a boy, or a girl.

“This is a kid who is smack in the middle,” Moriko said. “His feet are getting bigger, his voice is starting to deepen. He doesn’t want to start blockers. We don’t really know what’s next.” She sighed and then started to cry. “His therapist said to me, ‘I know you’ve been living without a gender box for a very long time, and I know it’s frustrating and confusing, but right now, he just doesn’t want to be in a box.’ I’m not trying to label him, but it’s hard not to wonder what he is, if he’s not a boy and he’s not a girl. Sometimes I worry that not being in a box isn’t healthy, either, even if the box is ‘gay’ or ‘genderqueer.’ I just want to be able to wrap my head around some concept. I know I have to be patient, but sometimes I feel like an emotional hostage, because as his parent, it’s my job to help him be whatever he wants to be, and I can’t do that if he doesn’t know where he’s headed.”

James, for example, is a 14-year-old boy who from age 5 to 10 had long hair, wore feminine clothes and was frequently mistaken for a girl. It was an error that seemed neither to bother nor delight him. By fifth grade, though, he had abandoned most of his skirts. A year later, he was so adamant about being known as a boy that he ordered his parents never to mention his feminine past around his friends.

P. J.’s favorite video game, Glory of Heracles, features an ambiguously gendered character that P.J. described as a girl who wants to be a boy.

“Do you feel like that?” I asked him one day at his house.

“No, I don’t want to be a girl,” he said, as he checked himself out in his bedroom mirror and posed, Cosmo-style. “I just want to wear girl stuff.”

“Why do you want to be a boy and not a girl?” I asked.

He looked at me as if I were daft. “Because I want to be who I am!”

By way of explanation, he told me about a boy in his third-grade class who is a soccer fanatic. “He comes to school every day in a soccer jersey and sweat pants,” P. J. said, “but that doesn’t make him a professional soccer player.”

Also, I'd like this to partly discuss what mental health is and the ethics of gender, sex, social behavior, and so on. Why are things that we don't understand so uncomfortable? Why do we feel the need to have categories and definite boundaries for things which are more nebulous and unbounded? Why is it that people are so quick and to comment decidedly on these issues despite lacking any objective evidence or authority? And of course, make sure to critically examine your presumptions before jumping in.

This topic, gender issues and transgendered issues, are pretty hot topics, especially as they intersect with child rearing and raising. Everyone seems to have very formed and unwavering opinions about this based on their own experience. They automatically want their children to adopt their values and reasonings and I think are afraid to have humility or doubt with such activities - no one wants to raise their children in the wrong way (related video - it's okay, and likely better in the end, to deviate). I think, if they examine them closer, they'll find their opinions didn't actually have a good foundation of evidence and justification to rest on.

So. What IS so bad about a boy wearing a dress?

[Apostate]

When I was a young boy, I was very soft spoken and shy, very feminine in the activities that I enjoyed doing. As I grew older I was given chances to be more dominant, something that I grew to enjoy. Authority was a natural fit for me both in relationships and otherwise throughout middle school and onwards. During this period of time I was unquestionably straight, but definitely had a sensitive side that I had learned was considered weakness in a man. So for the most part I fit myself into the male gender binary in every way I could.

Drugs and alcohol brought out my other characteristics, though. While drunk for the first time it became very obvious that I was in fact bisexual. I reassessed a lot of things after that. I had to come to terms with being a unique person in a way I hadn't before.

For the most part though I still very much enjoy living out the traits that are generally considered masculine. I love being a guy. However, I've seen many men struggle with how unmanly they are. I have friends who look up to me as an ideal for how they wish they had the will to act, stoic and proud and confident. They will never be that, because they aren't. And when I come to think of it, I would rather be valued for my noble qualities in and of themselves, rather than having it viewed as a successful conformity to traditional masculinity. I enjoy being open about my atypical man side, such as my love for writing poetry or making art.

I think that there are some things that will always be a certain way between men and women simply due to biology, but it is so base and underlying compared to most of what we consider gender stereotypes that it isn't even worth mentioning for this discussion. I've met people like you, Beany, who are robbed of being able to call themselves men comfortably because they have come to terms with not identifying with a stereotype. Then I've met people who insist on being called men while hating themselves for not being manly at all.

It's all coming apart though. The dominant hetero males who convinced the world that all men should be like them no longer hold that sway. Gender binaries are breaking down. One major thing that still needs to change is that women need to stop being told that they should be attracted to only a specific type of man. I think many men feel enslaved to a stereotype, feel convinced that they must be strong and proud and dominant in order to make a woman happy. If women feel pressured to look a certain way by society, men feel just as pressured to act a certain way.

[Lethe]

It is human nature to be uncomfortable concerning topics we don't understand. Why would we not be. Have you ever been in any type of meeting where people are spewing off random subjects and you don't have a clue what they are saying? You play conservative. Same as any type of change, people are uncomfortable with change if they are satisfied with the status quo.

I'm not too bothered by the subject, as kids will be kids. Who here acts the same as they were a kid? It is important though to play the cards you are dealt well. Everyone has weaknesses, and if I have learnt anything over the last few years, it's that 'weaknesses' in a personality are very hard to overcome. What is significantly easier though is amplifying one's strengths, and letting others cover for your weaknesses, and vice versa.

[[5]willdaBEAST]

I'd say a significant amount of sexual repression in America is due to the Puritans and other similar movements. Seeing things in black and white seems to be a consistent flaw in most societies, regardless of the topic. In my mind sexuality is pretty clearly a spectrum, but that idea makes most people uncomfortable because it requires self-reflection. At the heart of it, that's probably what bothers people about little boys wearing dresses. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with doing that, the only reason anyone cares is because it goes against the social norm. If all social constructs can be actively challenged or reversed, people who lack a true sense of identity become extremely uncomfortable.

For me transgender operations are a more murky issue, my gut reaction is to assume that some kind of psychological trauma induced the desire for a sex change. That may not be fair and I'm sure chemical imbalances can readily explain most behavior or urges, I just find the concept of having a sex-change very difficult to understand. It's essentially a cosmetic surgery that has chemical ramifications and I just don't see how you could evaluate whether or not someone is pursuing a sex-change for reasons that are beneficial to their mental health.

[Beanybag]

I'd say a significant amount of sexual repression in America is due to the Puritans and other similar movements. Seeing things in black and white seems to be a consistent flaw in most societies, regardless of the topic. In my mind sexuality is pretty clearly a spectrum, but that idea makes most people uncomfortable because it requires self-reflection. At the heart of it, that's probably what bothers people about little boys wearing dresses. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with doing that, the only reason anyone cares is because it goes against the social norm. If all social constructs can be actively challenged or reversed, people who lack a true sense of identity become extremely uncomfortable.

For me transgender operations are a more murky issue, my gut reaction is to assume that some kind of psychological trauma induced the desire for a sex change. That may not be fair and I'm sure chemical imbalances can readily explain most behavior or urges, I just find the concept of having a sex-change very difficult to understand. It's essentially a cosmetic surgery that has chemical ramifications and I just don't see how you could evaluate whether or not someone is pursuing a sex-change for reasons that are beneficial to their mental health.

For most, when your brain develops, it dimorphs (lots of study into how the brain will start as sort of non-gendered brain and develop) into one of two genders, male or female. In almost every scenario, perceived gender will align with biological sex. Not always, though. In this case, the brain is fairly inelastic here (much like with sexual orientation, it's hard to change someone's gender - just imagine how hard it would be to change yours or your sexual orientation). So, we can try to 'repair' the brain, or we can just make the image on the outside fit what's on the inside. Generally, better to stay out of trying to change the brain and focus on externalities, especially when someone's gender being different isn't really anything harmful in of itself, it only creates a problem when your sex and gender don't align (gender disphoria).

[Hat_Truck]

Apostate and I had a discussion about this the other day over Skype.

Basically, I don't think gender roles should be enforced by society, I think kids should be raised to enjoy whatever they happen to enjoy (even if that is skirts - Oh my, I can see the faces of the Christian parents now).

However, I think gender roles exist in nature for obvious reasons, so people are going to be more inclined towards one or the other in the end. The male is typically the dominant/authority figure and the female is typically the supporter/nurturer type. It definitely isn't ALWAYS this way (nor does it have to be), this is just the way nature expresses itself in my experience.

[[Nasu]need4snacks]

There is nothing wrong with a boy wearing a dress.

[LegoPirate]

One major thing that still needs to change is that women need to stop being told that they should be attracted to only a specific type of man. I think many men feel enslaved to a stereotype, feel convinced that they must be strong and proud and dominant in order to make a woman happy. If women feel pressured to look a certain way by society, men feel just as pressured to act a certain way.

in my anecdotal travels, strong dominant women have really severe daddy issues. obviously this is a gross generalization, but something i have found prevalent.

also, strong dominant men are attractive to women on a primordial level. they can protect the family and be good fathers and providers. this is more anthropology then sociology.

[[EEND]KingSaber]

The interesting thing is when I try an think about it with an open mind an the best interest of everybody I agree that it is alright. But when you actually see cross-dressers I get the sickest feeling in my stomach. It has to do with the way we have been raised to think for our entire lives.
Now don't get me wrong. Some cross dressers look wicked. An that is mostly because they are girly looking men to begin with. But raising your children to stay inside the genderbox might be safe for them to begin with. People are disgusting an their is nothing worse than being look down upon an being viewed as a bad influence on the other children. This is something that will never change. Sometimes it blows my mind how closed minded an selfish people can be. I had a conversation with my friend the other day about gay marriages. He doesn't support it because he doesn't want to see two men getting married. That is all.

pikaboo

[[Poni]Octavia]

Well, just because someone is transgendered doesn't mean they can't be ugly. It's probably only the ugly ones that stand out to you as being transgendered anyway. It's a lot of confirmation bias and stuff that's really hard to notice. The best you can do is try to treat everyone as an individual.

What annoys me about the transgender community is their ridiculous crusade against certain English words and arbitrary conclusions on (and faux serious discussions about) what is and isn't "offensive". Yeah, English doesn't have any gender-neutral singular personal pronouns. Big deal. I didn't invent the language, and I'm not bending it to the will of a bunch of prissy idiots who think they own a language just because they speak it. The amount of whining I see over semantics that don't matter is astounding. People just love to feel like a victim.

[[EEND]KingSaber]

Well, just because someone is transgendered doesn't mean they can't be ugly. It's probably only the ugly ones that stand out to you as being transgendered anyway. It's a lot of confirmation bias and stuff that's really hard to notice. The best you can do is try to treat everyone as an individual.

What annoys me about the transgender community is their ridiculous crusade against certain English words and arbitrary conclusions on (and faux serious discussions about) what is and isn't "offensive". Yeah, English doesn't have any gender-neutral singular personal pronouns. Big deal. I didn't invent the language, and I'm not bending it to the will of a bunch of prissy idiots who think they own a language just because they speak it. The amount of whining I see over semantics that don't matter is astounding. People just love to feel like a victim.

It's not just a matter of being ugly or not. Men have different facial features than women.

Here is some of the better results. O_O The day that you wake up next to one of these dudes after you had to much to drink.

[Beanybag]

Most of those features only develop after puberty. If trans people are allowed to take blockers before they transition, they transition can be very 'seamless' for lack of a better word. As it is, many transgendered folk aren't allowed to go through any transitioning procedures until 18, which just makes things much worse for them.

[Apostate]

Most of those features only develop after puberty. If trans people are allowed to take blockers before they transition, they transition can be very 'seamless' for lack of a better word. As it is, many transgendered folk aren't allowed to go through any transitioning procedures until 18, which just makes things much worse for them.

The problem is that a lot of people might go through a trans phase without being truly trans. What if our good man Lethe had been convinced he was a girl between 16-17, and took pills for it, then a year later realized he was a total idiot? It would be disastrous. Teenagers are idiots and most of them have no idea who they are. If it could be medically diagnosed and treated almost like an illness from age 14 onwards it would be much more seamless. Maybe we'll get there one day.


I'd totally date a trans chick if she fit all of my other relationship criteria. I don't care what's between her legs, or what was ten years ago.

[[EEND]KingSaber]

The problem is that a lot of people might go through a trans phase without being truly trans. What if our good man Lethe had been convinced he was a girl between 16-17, and took pills for it, then a year later realized he was a total idiot? It would be disastrous. Teenagers are idiots and most of them have no idea who they are. If it could be medically diagnosed and treated almost like an illness from age 14 onwards it would be much more seamless. Maybe we'll get there one day.


I'd totally date a trans chick if she fit all of my other relationship criteria. I don't care what's between her legs, or what was ten years ago.

wooo apostate you said something that I would never say. GG

[Beanybag]

The problem is that a lot of people might go through a trans phase without being truly trans. What if our good man Lethe had been convinced he was a girl between 16-17, and took pills for it, then a year later realized he was a total idiot? It would be disastrous. Teenagers are idiots and most of them have no idea who they are. If it could be medically diagnosed and treated almost like an illness from age 14 onwards it would be much more seamless. Maybe we'll get there one day.

I've actually never heard of this happening. It must be an extremely small number if it does. Also, gender dysmorphia can be diagnosed and is a necessary prerequisite to begin transitioning, as hormones are prescriptions. And transgenderism was just very recently declassified as a mental illness, which people used to discriminate against transpeople, e.g. I can't hire him/her, he/she's a nut!

[Apostate]

I've actually never heard of this happening. It must be an extremely small number if it does. Also, gender dysmorphia can be diagnosed and is a necessary prerequisite to begin transitioning, as hormones are prescriptions. And transgenderism was just very recently declassified as a mental illness, which people used to discriminate against transpeople, e.g. I can't hire him/her, he/she's a nut!

Maybe it doesn't happen very often. I think a lot more people would play with the idea though if they could start at 16 or whatever.

Isn't it a mental illness though? What else would you call it? You're internal self image is the wrong gender. Pretty mental.

[LegoPirate]

the fundamental problem with transgender is that regardless of you want people to see in you, they will see what they see.
this is just a general problem with any sort of identity crisis.

there is what a person wants/wishes/aspires to be, and then there is what they actually are. when there is a realization that these two dont align in some big and fundamental way there is a crisis.

now, when someone has a gender identity crisis, they need to realize that there is a chance that regardless of how many pills they take and surgeries they get, they will always look like a dude.(or chick).

i think modern medicine has done alot of good. but it also attempts to bail us out far too often. these people dont learn to deal or cope with their issues. they simply take these pills and get a surgery and expect to suddenly have a healty body image.

please dont miss understand, im not saying that being transgendered is a bad thing, or that every single one of them is miserable. im saying that these people dont always realize that they will never be percieved by their peers as a (wo)man, and thus should learn to create a self image that isnt based upon how people see them. better to be an effeminate man whos accepted hes a fruitbag then a 6'4" 200 pound "chick" with a square jaw who cries out in disgust when people notice that hes pretty obviously a dude (or formerly was)

[Beanybag]

Maybe it doesn't happen very often. I think a lot more people would play with the idea though if they could start at 16 or whatever.

Isn't it a mental illness though? What else would you call it? You're internal self image is the wrong gender. Pretty mental.

Gender Dysmorphia is a disorder that needs treatment. Once treated, you can be said to be healthy. Gender Identity Disorder is no longer a disorder, which would mean you would be considered mentally ill for your whole life, transitioned or not.

http://transbliss.com/2012/07/transg...mentally-ill/#

I think you underestimate how early children know they are transgendered which is typically much earlier than people realize their sexual orientation. Yes, teens might be stupid but many of these children know much earlier than that and I think it's overly damaging to be so condescending. Pay attention to the pronouns the children ask to be called in the article I linked.. most of them wanted to be identified either with no gender or the gender that corresponds to their biological sex. It's very possible none of those children would grow up to be transgendered. Had one of the children asked to be called by an opposite pronoun, it's very likely they would have grown up to be transgendered.

the fundamental problem with transgender is that regardless of you want people to see in you, they will see what they see.
this is just a general problem with any sort of identity crisis.

there is what a person wants/wishes/aspires to be, and then there is what they actually are. when there is a realization that these two dont align in some big and fundamental way there is a crisis.

now, when someone has a gender identity crisis, they need to realize that there is a chance that regardless of how many pills they take and surgeries they get, they will always look like a dude.(or chick).

i think modern medicine has done alot of good. but it also attempts to bail us out far too often. these people dont learn to deal or cope with their issues. they simply take these pills and get a surgery and expect to suddenly have a healty body image.

please dont miss understand, im not saying that being transgendered is a bad thing, or that every single one of them is miserable. im saying that these people dont always realize that they will never be percieved by their peers as a (wo)man, and thus should learn to create a self image that isnt based upon how people see them. better to be an effeminate man whos accepted hes a fruitbag then a 6'4" 200 pound "chick" with a square jaw who cries out in disgust when people notice that hes pretty obviously a dude (or formerly was)

I'm pretty patient, and I won't go off on any posts here. But most transfolk would probably have gone off on such an uninformed opinion. Image is one of the strongest sources of depression and anxiety, especially among transgendered people. It's not as easy as simply being able to 'feel good in your body' when someone tells you to. Even cisgendered people have lots of image issues and they're always a challenge to deal with. But, isn't looking closer to what you feel like better than trying to appease what everyone else would rather you look like? Unfortunately, not always. Transsexual people who can't 'pass' can be in serious amounts of danger. So, they're either scared to death when transitioning (or avoid transitioning altogether) for fear they won't pass or they're forced to lie about who they are to everyone around them their entire life. I think 'these people' would learn to cope with these issues if they could be coped with, but you can't just tell them to cope and expect them to be happy. This is a real source of anguish that they see everytime they talk to people and get misidentified, everytime they look in the mirror and hate themselves, and everytime they're discriminated or hated against. I'm having difficulties explaining this in the best way right now, because I'm rushed for time. I think, just be careful when you make a post about 'those people', whether it be any group, and try to examine ALL the differences and see if their problem is that they really need to just cope, or if the problems are a little bit more than that.

So, really, is it just so hard to be kind to that 200 pound chick with a square jaw and refer to her as a girl?

[[5]willdaBEAST]

Gender Dysmorphia is a disorder that needs treatment. Once treated, you can be said to be healthy. Gender Identity Disorder is no longer a disorder, which would mean you would be considered mentally ill for your whole life, transitioned or not.

http://transbliss.com/2012/07/transg...mentally-ill/#

I think you underestimate how early children know they are transgendered which is typically much earlier than people realize their sexual orientation. Yes, teens might be stupid but many of these children know much earlier than that and I think it's overly damaging to be so condescending. Pay attention to the pronouns the children ask to be called in the article I linked.. most of them wanted to be identified either with no gender or the gender that corresponds to their biological sex. It's very possible none of those children would grow up to be transgendered. Had one of the children asked to be called by an opposite pronoun, it's very likely they would have grown up to be transgendered.



I'm pretty patient, and I won't go off on any posts here. But most transfolk would probably have gone off on such an uninformed opinion. Image is one of the strongest sources of depression and anxiety, especially among transgendered people. It's not as easy as simply being able to 'feel good in your body' when someone tells you to. Even cisgendered people have lots of image issues and they're always a challenge to deal with. But, isn't looking closer to what you feel like better than trying to appease what everyone else would rather you look like? Unfortunately, not always. Transsexual people who can't 'pass' can be in serious amounts of danger. So, they're either scared to death when transitioning (or avoid transitioning altogether) for fear they won't pass or they're forced to lie about who they are to everyone around them their entire life. I think 'these people' would learn to cope with these issues if they could be coped with, but you can't just tell them to cope and expect them to be happy. This is a real source of anguish that they see everytime they talk to people and get misidentified, everytime they look in the mirror and hate themselves, and everytime they're discriminated or hated against. I'm having difficulties explaining this in the best way right now, because I'm rushed for time. I think, just be careful when you make a post about 'those people', whether it be any group, and try to examine ALL the differences and see if their problem is that they really need to just cope, or if the problems are a little bit more than that.

So, really, is it just so hard to be kind to that 200 pound chick with a square jaw and refer to her as a girl?

Maybe it's idealistic to believe we could ever have a society where there's a full spectrum of sexual identity as opposed to a dichotomy, but I just don't see attempting to swap gender as a real solution. From what I understand most transgender people have elements of both male and female physiology, so while trying to alter them to more closely resemble the sex they identify with may help their perception of self, they'll still possess traits from the opposite sex. Being bi-racial is a totally different issue, but would you support a bi-racial individual getting surgery to appear like they were only one ethnicity? This situation would involve little to no chemical changes (as far as I know), but in respect to self-identity it shares quite a few things in common. I just can't help but think that transgender surgery conforms the individual to social constructs, which in a practical sense may be the best possible solution, but it's not truly addressing the underlying causes. Are there any cultures that are especially accepting of transgender individuals? I know Thailand somewhat recognizes a third gender, but are kathoeys marginalized? I guess their situation is better than that of transgender individuals in the Western world, but still seen as somewhat taboo.

[Beanybag]

Maybe it's idealistic to believe we could ever have a society where there's a full spectrum of sexual identity as opposed to a dichotomy, but I just don't see attempting to swap gender as a real solution. From what I understand most transgender people have elements of both male and female physiology, so while trying to alter them to more closely resemble the sex they identify with may help their perception of self, they'll still possess traits from the opposite sex. Being bi-racial is a totally different issue, but would you support a bi-racial individual getting surgery to appear like they were only one ethnicity?

While this does seem analogous at a distance, closer inspection will reveal the situation to be a little more difficult than that. Which race you are doesn't cause you to develop vastly different features in the brain. Sexual dimorphism is a real process that happens in brain development in which the brain will begin developing as a male gendered brain or as a female gendered brain. This process is fairly permanent which makes gender identity an inelastic feature of the brain. In other words, it'd be easier to change your body than your brain, in this case, and likely cause less suffering. Yes, gender is more likely a spectrum and some people 'dimorph' more than others. And yes, gender dismorphism very often aligns with biological sex - but not always.

Ethnicity on the other hand is an almost meaningless trait. What effect does ethnicity even have on the brain? It would seem to be an almost entirely extra-mental feature.

This situation would involve little to no chemical changes (as far as I know), but in respect to self-identity it shares quite a few things in common. I just can't help but think that transgender surgery conforms the individual to social constructs, which in a practical sense may be the best possible solution, but it's not truly addressing the underlying causes. Are there any cultures that are especially accepting of transgender individuals? I know Thailand somewhat recognizes a third gender, but are kathoeys marginalized? I guess their situation is better than that of transgender individuals in the Western world, but still seen as somewhat taboo.

It's hard to tell, since gender and sexual relationships are embedded heavily in culture, how much gendered behavior is cultural and how much is developmental. I think there is a slightly objective basis for gender roles in evolutionary psychology and sex differences. I think differently gendered brains will be more predisposed to accept gender roles of their respective genders, but I can't really be sure. It is certainly an area in need of more research.