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No, no, I don't want drug addicts to die. I never even came CLOSE to saying that. I said that if I had to choose between Bill Gates and a methhead the choice would be easy. I'm no addict but I'm definitely NOT opposed to drugs. More of an activist really.
I have no problem judging people. I don't think I'd have a problem taking a life. It's a probability, really. The odds of that methhead turning his life around are minimal (although after surviving this near death experience, perhaps the odds would be higher). At any rate, it seems obvious that there is a better chance that the Bill Gates esque figure here will do good. In fact, there's a good chance that I'll have actually prevented an evil. Perhaps this meth head will rape a little girl and steal her purse tomorrow, purely due to my unwillingness to get my hands dirty. At that point in time it would almost be immoral to choose to kill Bill Gates, in that at that point in time I'm deliberately choosing the option most likely to lead to harm. That's as objective as I'd get, but it doesn't even have to be objective. While I value life and consider it beautiful, it is not so holy that I dare not take it from another. Doing so would not make me a sovereign judge, just a man.
Last edited by Apostate; 08-09-2012 at 05:09 PM.
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The strong moral reason that a person conceived through rape is applicable for abortion is because it wasn't the mother's fault for being impregnated. It's one thing to kill someone because of your personal irresponsibility, it's another to kill someone because of something as profoundly awful as rape.Originally Posted by Apostate
If I was kidnapped and taken to a community that didn't want me, would it be okay for the people in that community to kill me?
...and so I do affirm.
You refuted yourself. Read below:
If I was kidnapped and taken to a community that didn't want me, would it be okay for the people in that community to kill me?
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Sorry for misunderstanding you but you can't really say this isn't close to saying that:
I'd probably choose Gates over three junkies as well, even if they did turn their lives around they probably wouldn't impact the world as much as he would anyway. That'd just be me making the decision I thought best though.
I suppose my own personal code of ethics would prevent me from coming to the same conclusions, even if I'm personally inclined to agree. It just doesn't feel like it's my place to judge someone else and I wouldn't want the same done of me. This is probably why I would never want to hold a position of power. But, since I appreciate some amount of virtue ethics, so long as I felt my decision was virtuous, I would probably pick Bill Gates. I know he's a pretty generous philanthropist, and I'd personally be sad to see him go. I don't think I'd be violating any of what I consider virtues in making this decision and it'd be in my own self-interest to pick him. Like I said, I don't think I can be blamed for either decision and I don't think there's a wrong one. I have no way of knowing which one is ultimately the better one. I'm going to leave it at that though, don't want to comment much more on this as I think I've said everything that needs to be said about it.
No, I meant that I wouldn't think that my choice in this specific situation had philosophical ramifications that compelled me to murder every junkie. I think you misread what I said
I can respect that even if I can't personally relate. My best friend's girlfriend is the same way. She has an extremely profound vehemence towards the idea of deciding about someone else's life. Our discussions always end in arguments and her accusing me of being a serial killer. Thank you for not doing that.
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No, I did not. The community doesn't want me there. I never stated any particular reason, and that's because there isn't one. People should not be killed without a strong reason. But if one exists, as aborting for rape - then it's permissible.
...and so I do affirm.
So if an innocent child is conceived through rape, that justifies murdering the baby? I don't understand why. Obviously I don't think it's murder at all but you appear to, so I'm wondering. I really don't think the trauma of giving birth to a rapebaby weighs up against murdering an innocent child. In the Christian tradition especially, since in that worldview God had decreed for the rape to occur and had crafted the soul and body of that poor child in his loving hands.
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Admittedly, answering Rordarok's question was a deviation from the OP. It just seemed that since everyone was going on tangents it was okay.
My personal views on abortion are based on the principle that the fetus is going to become a human being. I don't believe that it's human initially, or that just because it's a living thing it shouldn't be killed. I believe that because it is a living thing that is definitely going to become a human that it deserves at least some protections.
What bothers me the most about debates on abortion is that most people against it struggle to find the absolute principle they need to justify the sort of moderate pro-life view that the OP is talking about. The reason, I believe, is because a fetus cannot be treated like any other person. It is inherently dependent on another human's body, and it has yet to develop a sense of awareness that most pro-choicer's demand exist for a being to receive rights. I dislike both camps. Because of the circumstances surrounding a fetus, it can't exactly grasp the same level of rights as a born human, nor should it. But at the same time, it's inevitable acquisition of the properties necessary to be a human should give it some ground - at least that's how I feel.
Ultimately, what I am saying is that I place some worth on a fetus, but not enough to justify it's existence against something so evil as forcing a raped woman to carry the child of her attacker and then give birth to it.
...and so I do affirm.
Not all fetuses become humans: miscarriages, etc. Ignoring that, wouldn't that logic mean that since sperm and eggs are technically living, and if joined become a fetus, which in turn becomes a human, that they should have protected rights as well?
Your former point is on exceptions and specific instances, I'm talking about principle. There could be no basis for any idea if we absolutely had to consider every special circumstance.
And your latter point, of course not. A sperm and egg are not definitely going to become a human being individually, and so individually - they do not deserve those protections.
...and so I do affirm.
Well, a sperm might become a human and a fetus might not, even if they are both very likely to head the direction you said. Maybe a better distinction is that a fetus or embryo is genetically/biologically a human whereas the other is not. I don't like ruling out exceptions randomly when they are relevant to the distinction you're trying to draw.
In the year 2100. The earths population of children with birth deformities has dropped to a whopping 0.1%. It is now a simple matter of aborting your child until you get the desired result.
An I personally think that you should draw a line for this. Down syndrome? no? My cousin is bipolar an dysfunctional but I am happy that he is alive. I think that he has enjoyed his life and I am sure it has put some stress on the mother to raise him but that is something that you need to be prepared for when you raise a child. I really hope we never have technology that can see any genetic deformities/ illnesses that your child might develop if you perceed with birth. That is going to be one extremely disgusting day.
An for my moral outlook on abortion. Abortion is alright if you think your going to have a unstable situation to raise the child. Abortion is ok if you think the child will not have an active parent to raise him. (It sucks to be raised without a mother or father.) But that where I draw the line with this. If your reasoning for abortion is because you don't want to have a child then I seriously sympathize for the life you just took away.
Dang, think about all the things you can abort for in the future. Skin color, IQ, appearance an maby even hair color. How can I forget gender. We already abort for having an unwanted gender today.
Last edited by KingSaber; 08-09-2012 at 06:31 PM.
But then, would you wish bipolar disorder on anyone? It's a rather undesirable condition. In the movie Gataca, they don't even just abort babies until they get the best result. What they do is they pick through the sperm and eggs of the two parents and make four possible test fertilized eggs. Then they assess the potential of each and the parents pick. I think this is a much more ethical and promising way of producing a human being than randomly procreating and hoping the child comes out okay.
I mean, if your cousin's parents had waited a single day before having sex, a different sperm would have fertilized his mother's egg, resulting in a completely different child. Every day that I choose to not procreate I am in a sense murdering a potentially beautiful human being. With such chaos and unpredictability in the world, isn't it better that we do our best to make sure things turn out right?
A world where no one has disorders or chronic conditions or deformities would be a different world than our own, and so it is alien to us in some regards. But I think it would be a better world.
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It would be good as long as it was affordable to everyone. An I highly doubt that something like this is going to start out affordable for everyone. When this does start to become prevalent their is going to be even a worst sence of middle class an upper class than their was in the bronze age.
Besides why don't we just forget the conventional ways of having birth alltogether. If your going as far to say that the world would be a better place with people without deformities then why not just create sperm cells with all the attributes that the mother an father want. Have the fetus develop in some sort of tube that gives the optimal amount of nutrition for a successful birth. Maby people would became more open as a civilization an start to accept friends as family with a system like that.
Wooo offtopicness in offtopic
Last edited by KingSaber; 08-09-2012 at 06:52 PM.
My prediction: Eventually technology will completely replace the societal function of the lower class, who primarily only exist to perform physical labor for the middle and upper class. As soon as that happens, the only jobs that exist will ALL require significant education and everyone will be intelligent. At this point it would benefit the whole society to allow everyone to be gene-enhanced, although especially the wealthy.
I think it's really exciting to think about. Think of all the completely cruel aspects of the world that might be done away with.
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I've mentioned these examples in other posts, but read about Tay Sachs disease or Sickle-Cell anemia if you haven't. Both are extremely undesirable in dominant forms, but one protects against tuberculosis and the other malaria in recessive carriers. Certain traits exist due to environmental pressures and if we're cherry picking genes, there's an extremely high risk that we might weed out something that is favorable to us. A more direct danger would be some kind of virus or disease that would eradicate everyone that didn't possess an unusual mutation. Favorable traits exist because of a long and slow process of evolution, I don't think we're even close to the scientific point where we can adequately judge what kind of repercussions there might be if we start cosmetic gene selection.
I don't see how you can justify forcing a woman to go through immense emotional and physical changes for more than 9 months in cases of rape, even if abortion is murder. I'm going to disregard all religious connotations, because I don't think those are relevant. As I've said many times before in this thread, there are clear distinctions between willingly engaging in behavior that could lead to the conception of a child and essentially being infected with a parasite from a rapist. Xenomorphs are clearly based on this situation, so while it's a sensationalistic comparison, it's pretty appropriate. I personally think you can justify abortion in any situation, but you're a terrible person if you willingly engage in unprotected sex and use abortion as a form of birth control.So if an innocent child is conceived through rape, that justifies murdering the baby? I don't understand why. Obviously I don't think it's murder at all but you appear to, so I'm wondering. I really don't think the trauma of giving birth to a rapebaby weighs up against murdering an innocent child. In the Christian tradition especially, since in that worldview God had decreed for the rape to occur and had crafted the soul and body of that poor child in his loving hands.
I like the optimism, but unfortunately I think it would work the other way. The middle-class and wealthy would continue to be educated and the poor would essentially be forced out of society. At least in a capitalistic system, I don't see anyway that some form of poverty won't exist. It's a common problem with any closed-system, for any extreme to exist (wealth), an opposite has to compensate (poverty). Manual labor may be replaced by robots, but there sure would be a lot of data entry required for that kind of society.
That's a very interesting and worthwhile commentary on the whole gene thing. Maybe they will find ways of dealing with that.
I agree with you personally, but I think that if you view fetuses as soul carrying innocent children and believe abortion is murder, it is definitely still wrong to abort a child wrought from rape. I wouldn't murder someone to avoid going through nine months of physical and emotional trauma, especially not if it was my own child. When I was a Christian I steadfastly told this to everyone. If abortion is murder, it is inconsistent to allow exceptions. Even in cases where the mother's life is at stake.I don't see how you can justify forcing a woman to go through immense emotional and physical changes for more than 9 months in cases of rape, even if abortion is murder. I'm going to disregard all religious connotations, because I don't think those are relevant. As I've said many times before in this thread, there are clear distinctions between willingly engaging in behavior that could lead to the conception of a child and essentially being infected with a parasite from a rapist. Xenomorphs are clearly based on this situation, so while it's a sensationalistic comparison, it's pretty appropriate. I personally think you can justify abortion in any situation, but you're a terrible person if you willingly engage in unprotected sex and use abortion as a form of birth control.
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My views on abortion have always seemed obvious an remained the same for me. If a women is raped an is forced to have the child of a person she despises the child is going to most likely have a bad childhood. The mother might have emotional issues raising him an their might even be a disputes of guardianship. If it is certain that the child might be missing a father or mother figure then I think its perfectly alright to have an abortion. I didn't grow up with my mother or father and it has left my relationship with them scarred. I however do believe that if a child is conceived by accident with a good financial position then the mother an father should take responsibility of their actions an raise the child.
Last edited by KingSaber; 08-09-2012 at 09:49 PM.
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