No, no, I don't want drug addicts to die. I never even came CLOSE to saying that. I said that if I had to choose between Bill Gates and a methhead the choice would be easy. I'm no addict but I'm definitely NOT opposed to drugs. More of an activist really.
I have no problem judging people. I don't think I'd have a problem taking a life. It's a probability, really. The odds of that methhead turning his life around are minimal (although after surviving this near death experience, perhaps the odds would be higher). At any rate, it seems obvious that there is a better chance that the Bill Gates esque figure here will do good. In fact, there's a good chance that I'll have actually prevented an evil. Perhaps this meth head will rape a little girl and steal her purse tomorrow, purely due to my unwillingness to get my hands dirty. At that point in time it would almost be immoral to choose to kill Bill Gates, in that at that point in time I'm deliberately choosing the option most likely to lead to harm. That's as objective as I'd get, but it doesn't even have to be objective. While I value life and consider it beautiful, it is not so holy that I dare not take it from another. Doing so would not make me a sovereign judge, just a man.
Last edited by Apostate; 08-09-2012 at 06:09 PM.
...and so I do affirm.
I suppose my own personal code of ethics would prevent me from coming to the same conclusions, even if I'm personally inclined to agree. It just doesn't feel like it's my place to judge someone else and I wouldn't want the same done of me. This is probably why I would never want to hold a position of power. But, since I appreciate some amount of virtue ethics, so long as I felt my decision was virtuous, I would probably pick Bill Gates. I know he's a pretty generous philanthropist, and I'd personally be sad to see him go. I don't think I'd be violating any of what I consider virtues in making this decision and it'd be in my own self-interest to pick him. Like I said, I don't think I can be blamed for either decision and I don't think there's a wrong one. I have no way of knowing which one is ultimately the better one. I'm going to leave it at that though, don't want to comment much more on this as I think I've said everything that needs to be said about it.
Admittedly, answering Rordarok's question was a deviation from the OP. It just seemed that since everyone was going on tangents it was okay.
My personal views on abortion are based on the principle that the fetus is going to become a human being. I don't believe that it's human initially, or that just because it's a living thing it shouldn't be killed. I believe that because it is a living thing that is definitely going to become a human that it deserves at least some protections.
What bothers me the most about debates on abortion is that most people against it struggle to find the absolute principle they need to justify the sort of moderate pro-life view that the OP is talking about. The reason, I believe, is because a fetus cannot be treated like any other person. It is inherently dependent on another human's body, and it has yet to develop a sense of awareness that most pro-choicer's demand exist for a being to receive rights. I dislike both camps. Because of the circumstances surrounding a fetus, it can't exactly grasp the same level of rights as a born human, nor should it. But at the same time, it's inevitable acquisition of the properties necessary to be a human should give it some ground - at least that's how I feel.
Ultimately, what I am saying is that I place some worth on a fetus, but not enough to justify it's existence against something so evil as forcing a raped woman to carry the child of her attacker and then give birth to it.
...and so I do affirm.
Your former point is on exceptions and specific instances, I'm talking about principle. There could be no basis for any idea if we absolutely had to consider every special circumstance.
And your latter point, of course not. A sperm and egg are not definitely going to become a human being individually, and so individually - they do not deserve those protections.
...and so I do affirm.
Well, a sperm might become a human and a fetus might not, even if they are both very likely to head the direction you said. Maybe a better distinction is that a fetus or embryo is genetically/biologically a human whereas the other is not. I don't like ruling out exceptions randomly when they are relevant to the distinction you're trying to draw.
An I personally think that you should draw a line for this. Down syndrome? no? My cousin is bipolar an dysfunctional but I am happy that he is alive. I think that he has enjoyed his life and I am sure it has put some stress on the mother to raise him but that is something that you need to be prepared for when you raise a child. I really hope we never have technology that can see any genetic deformities/ illnesses that your child might develop if you perceed with birth. That is going to be one extremely disgusting day.
An for my moral outlook on abortion. Abortion is alright if you think your going to have a unstable situation to raise the child. Abortion is ok if you think the child will not have an active parent to raise him. (It sucks to be raised without a mother or father.) But that where I draw the line with this. If your reasoning for abortion is because you don't want to have a child then I seriously sympathize for the life you just took away.
Dang, think about all the things you can abort for in the future. Skin color, IQ, appearance an maby even hair color. How can I forget gender. We already abort for having an unwanted gender today.
Last edited by KingSaber; 08-09-2012 at 07:31 PM.
I mean, if your cousin's parents had waited a single day before having sex, a different sperm would have fertilized his mother's egg, resulting in a completely different child. Every day that I choose to not procreate I am in a sense murdering a potentially beautiful human being. With such chaos and unpredictability in the world, isn't it better that we do our best to make sure things turn out right?
A world where no one has disorders or chronic conditions or deformities would be a different world than our own, and so it is alien to us in some regards. But I think it would be a better world.
Besides why don't we just forget the conventional ways of having birth alltogether. If your going as far to say that the world would be a better place with people without deformities then why not just create sperm cells with all the attributes that the mother an father want. Have the fetus develop in some sort of tube that gives the optimal amount of nutrition for a successful birth. Maby people would became more open as a civilization an start to accept friends as family with a system like that.
Wooo offtopicness in offtopic
Last edited by KingSaber; 08-09-2012 at 07:52 PM.
I think it's really exciting to think about. Think of all the completely cruel aspects of the world that might be done away with.
I don't see how you can justify forcing a woman to go through immense emotional and physical changes for more than 9 months in cases of rape, even if abortion is murder. I'm going to disregard all religious connotations, because I don't think those are relevant. As I've said many times before in this thread, there are clear distinctions between willingly engaging in behavior that could lead to the conception of a child and essentially being infected with a parasite from a rapist. Xenomorphs are clearly based on this situation, so while it's a sensationalistic comparison, it's pretty appropriate. I personally think you can justify abortion in any situation, but you're a terrible person if you willingly engage in unprotected sex and use abortion as a form of birth control.So if an innocent child is conceived through rape, that justifies murdering the baby? I don't understand why. Obviously I don't think it's murder at all but you appear to, so I'm wondering. I really don't think the trauma of giving birth to a rapebaby weighs up against murdering an innocent child. In the Christian tradition especially, since in that worldview God had decreed for the rape to occur and had crafted the soul and body of that poor child in his loving hands.
I agree with you personally, but I think that if you view fetuses as soul carrying innocent children and believe abortion is murder, it is definitely still wrong to abort a child wrought from rape. I wouldn't murder someone to avoid going through nine months of physical and emotional trauma, especially not if it was my own child. When I was a Christian I steadfastly told this to everyone. If abortion is murder, it is inconsistent to allow exceptions. Even in cases where the mother's life is at stake.I don't see how you can justify forcing a woman to go through immense emotional and physical changes for more than 9 months in cases of rape, even if abortion is murder. I'm going to disregard all religious connotations, because I don't think those are relevant. As I've said many times before in this thread, there are clear distinctions between willingly engaging in behavior that could lead to the conception of a child and essentially being infected with a parasite from a rapist. Xenomorphs are clearly based on this situation, so while it's a sensationalistic comparison, it's pretty appropriate. I personally think you can justify abortion in any situation, but you're a terrible person if you willingly engage in unprotected sex and use abortion as a form of birth control.
My views on abortion have always seemed obvious an remained the same for me. If a women is raped an is forced to have the child of a person she despises the child is going to most likely have a bad childhood. The mother might have emotional issues raising him an their might even be a disputes of guardianship. If it is certain that the child might be missing a father or mother figure then I think its perfectly alright to have an abortion. I didn't grow up with my mother or father and it has left my relationship with them scarred. I however do believe that if a child is conceived by accident with a good financial position then the mother an father should take responsibility of their actions an raise the child.
Last edited by KingSaber; 08-09-2012 at 10:49 PM.