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Yea, I've heard, supports win games, and that they are awesome in a way. But, I lose games all the time whenever I try to play them (due to me) besides one time with Empath.
I do all of the warding, babystitting, etc. How do I get better with someone like, Glacius or WS. Ideas>? Suggestions?
PS I am VERY GOOD AT carries.
First throw this mindset away completely. It will only hurt you because you will get angry/upset with every person who doesn't carry to your "standards."Originally Posted by VongolaTheX
Give me a match ID of your support play and I can point out some things to improve on.
97250247 Match ID. I believe I was terrible that time, but I am bad at support overall.
I'm not a support player, but I can tell you what I like when I have a babysitter as lanemate.
1. Ward at least 1 runespot, and keep at least 1 runespot warded throughout the game - double damage rune means ALOT, also lategame - From midgame and on, you will prefer to ward bottom rune, so you can spot kongor attemps aswell.
2. Harrash as much as possible. If any of the opponents doesn't have a shield, he's a good target for harrashing with autoattacks.
3. Deny teamcreeps whenever possible, don't shoot at enemy creeps.
4. If possible setup kills, unless it's the firstblood kill, don't mind getting the kill, the gold comes from farming creeps, not killing heroes. Getting early first blood on your carry is an almost certain won lane. If you win the lane, your carry might be able to control it himself, go and setup ganks mid or the other lane. If your carry has farming capabilities, runed or alike, stack creeps in forest.
5. Stack and pull if lane is pushed and your carry can farm fairly while you're gone.
6. Depending on what heroes are on your team, you can get either defensive or offensive wards, to make an example: If you have fayde, placing wards in enemy forest, is awesome, since he then can go and kill their carries while farming.
7. If your team is lacking behind, and your carry needs to farm forest/shortlane, make sure to ward defensively, so he can spot incomming ganks, and thereby farm safely.
8. Buying Wards of revelation and counterwarding gives your mid runecontrol wich is a huge help. Enemy team can't spot incomming ganks, and without runes, their mid won't gank as much. If your mid gets all runes, he should be ganking quite alot.
when i first started and was dragged down to the 1300's i played support and only support there on after. it was pretty amazing to see how rarely people pick support, i got all the way to 1730 right before they compressed and was able to play at that level after about 400 games. Some things i learned are best starting items, being able to harass effectively and bait kills off it, stacking, team fight positioning, wards, and mid/late items. ill give you a brief explanation ^^
starting items its usually- 1x health pot 2x minor totems 1x tango 2x wards (or upgraded courier) & 2 mana pots. If you're going long lane give a ward to an ally to ward pull. If youre going short ward rune & pull.
harassing effectively - usually what i like doing is to harass and b, harass and b. this will bring the wave closer to your tower and hopefully keep you in position to not die. also, keep an eye on your creepwave. if someone else is trading harass, throw a stun/slow as they right click you and you'll get the whole wave attacking your opponent. the art of harass imo is getting your opponent to try and get too aggressive and somewhat dive you. allowing your teammate to finish while youre out of range with low health. IMPORTANT** use your freaking spells!! its better to chip away at your opponent than sit at 100% mana and wait for kills. even at level 1. use it!
learning how to stack- stacking at 54 is simple but the timing of your stacks is key, if you went long lane with any hard carry. keep an eye on his farm and around 15-20 mins start 2x/3x stacking the jungle. especially ancients. this will allow your carry to be boosted into mid game with superior items. also its important to ALWAYS double stack the pull, because if you dont, your creepwave will destroy the camp too quick and come back just as your 2nd wave is coming thus pushing the lane. this comes in handy when you want to push the lane though. especially if youre pushing with say an ophelia, tempest, or keeper.
teamfight positioning - positioning in general, you want to stay as far away from the fog where someone can kill you. this will give you max amount of time to get away. for team fights, try to stay fairly close & behind your team mates. i dont mean hugging them so close someone can intiate on all of you but within range.
warding - something i tried to drill into my brain was always being aware of the other teams items especially supports. if you've kept up your wards you'll have better knowledge of where the enemy team warded to counter ward with hopefully your teammates. keeping up wards throughout the game will always give your team a fighting chance or ultimately the edge to win. When you're placing wards try to think about what kind of line up your team/other team has. if its going to be pretty aggressive for your team put offensive wards, if defensive well put defensive lol ;p. after 4-6 mins you really want to get a lane ward in the fog so you can prevent ganks happening. kongor vision is very important after 20 mins or when there isnt much action happening.
roaming/ganking - you can actually force your mid/other lanes to win by coming through the side and ganking. a good opportunity to do this is when your lane is pushed and the enemy team warded your pull. seeing these opportunities will come with experience.
items - you need survivability/utility items. if the enemy team has a pebbles/fayde or any heavy burst i am a big fan of steamboots/mystic vestments/astrolobe. surviving the first few ganks will not allow their heroes to snowball. other than that pushbook/stormspirit are great pick ups. if they have a super hard carry like predator/magebane you could save up and go sheep/hellflower. in some situations you could also opt for a barrier idol if no one on your team is getting one. for boots, imo striders are cheap but when you're learning about positioning & where not to be etc.. you'll die a lot because of it once you get attacked. ghost marchers are a lot better to scury in and out of team fights.
my favorite support to play is monarch. super clutch and great for silencing magic users. stuns are HUGE in this game so being able to remove them every 60 seconds or something ridculously low will save a lot of lives =]. i am glad to see that you want to learn support rather than "pick mid stomping heroes & win". you'll learn fundamental teamplay & important game mechanics to winning w/ support. gl man!
Last edited by bOOxO; 08-06-2012 at 04:52 AM.
Wow, this is such great advice! Thanks alot.
I dropped down to 1200 mmr and since then have pretty much only played support, my win percentage has gone from 45 to 47% and surprisingly my K : D ratio has stayed pretty much at 1 but my K+A : D has gone up.
Ive been going with your starting items except occasionally where rune control is essential I will buy my mid player a bottle. I ALWAYS go boots-->striders-->mana ring (always, ive found its a great asset for the team, in any situation)-->tablet of command then i either build Astro Blade or Nomes and if ive got lots of cash in between warding and counter warding ill change boots to phase or steams or even plated greaves and possible a staff of the master (or a bound eye if required) or Barier Idol.
It is a little frustrating playing support in this abysmally low bracket, games where I've bought 50+ wards, counter warded etc and we still get crushed. Triple stacked ancients that get ignored while the carry farms snotters, ultimately its a risk being at the mercy of the other players skill level and unfortunately in my bracket it often ends badly. Always having to try and convince the team that we should be ganking the Wildsoul or Warbeast whos been farming for 20 mins etc.
Ive mostly been playing Polly and I like that if my team is losing I can at least try and sneak a tower and try and wrest the advantage back with him. Also hes great for a surprise gank on Middle to give mid lane the advantage.
Overall I would say i feel more satisfaction winning a good game playing as a support with a score of 0-4-10 or something than playing a carry!
Well thanks!Try signaling the rest of your team for stacked ancients, easy upgraded boots/core item money if your carry is off in la la land. Lol hang in there dude i know how it is, there will always be games like that anyways. Once you get a little higher itll get better. Its a super fun experience supporting someone who knows what theyre doing. Once mid/endgame rolls around and he's dishing out easy 300 damage auto attacks you'll b like yep thats cuz of me *****es ! and i am 100% with you on that.
One thing that someone else already pointed out was in team fights staying a bit behind your tank and carry. This kind of positioning allows you to use your cc skills on the right opponents, usually their carry, and take them out of the fight for as long as possible giving your main damage dealers enough time to kill their support.
Triple stacking ancients and the jungle and keeping wards up during the mid game long enough for my carry to get items has won me more than a few games that would have been losses in the past. After their first damage item most carries will want to get a shrunken as fast as possible since the other team will be trying to focus them down as soon as the fight starts so if you can provide them an opportunity to get it 5 minutes earlier than the opposing carry you should then be able to force a team fight where you can still cc their carry while yours' is going on a killing spree.
I'm sorry but there is no way that you actually very good at any role with a 1300 rating, no matter what. I am not good, but I watched your recent stats as carries and except a few games you seem at best decent with scout. I don't want to be mean, but I think you should focus on learning basics before anything. Map awareness and positionning are keys to play, especially as a support.
Btw, the black code worth it if you want to improve your gameplay
to add a few things
Know what your capable of: don't overextend. Supports are usually easy to kill
Sometimes it's good to leave the lane to go gank and let your partner have solo xp
if mids losing go gank mid
always carry tp to help allies or defend
Stack the jungle for your carry
A dead support is better than a dead carry sometimes sacrifice is neccisary
however, remember one dead hero is better than 2. If you can't save your Ally, just run
Positioning is one thing lots of supports fail at. Don't get caught alone and don't get initiated on. Stand near the back and if your going to ward enemy's jungle have a teammate come with you. Remember to tp.
First : Your attitude in games is horrible, you're never going to get better with an attitude like that.
Your starting items are wrong. Always buy 2 minor totems, 2 mana pots, a runes of the blight, a health pot and 2 wards (In your bracket nobody else will ever upgrade the courier first because it's not important to them, wards > courier on priority.)
YOUR NEXT 200g GOES TO THE COURIER UPGRADE.
You place the first ward at 13 minutes even though you bought it at the very beginning, you want it placed at 1:50 so you can allow your mid to have rune control and see when mid is coming to your lane to gank you. Yes you had scout wards but those provide very little vision, your ward >>> scout wards.
Forget about learning support play right now, it's the general things that you really need work on. Map awareness, item choices, etc. I recommend you read all of FJ's black code. Once you have general playstyle elements down you can start working specifically on support.
Here are my big tips for support: "I'm not warding too much" Playing a support hero and not warding makes you useless to your team, don't pick support if you're not going to play it. Your positioning on support is crucial, stay in the back of teamfights, don't be off on your own too often (you get ganked numerous times off on your own in bad spots), COUNTERWARD. It is so helpful especially in your bracket because the enemy team probably won't buy more wards and if they do they usually put them in the same spot that you just counterwarded.
The priority for playing support goes like this:
Wards > Upgrade courier > boots > counterwards > survivability > luxury items.
You really should read ALL of FJ's black code as you have a LOT to improve on, but here's a link to the support section:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...1#post14996851
The absolute most important part of playing support is being able to judge exactly where every hero stands at any given time on both teams. You have to know what heroes on your team need some help farming(ward defensively, stack, babysit earlier) what heroes are ready to play aggressive (ward offensively and roam with them.) knowing when your carry can be left alone safely. Honestly I've always felt that carries we're played mechanically and supports more by experience and intuition.
Ive seen so many supports waste time by not knowing what to do at any given time.
Concur with Bumble & BOO. I'd like to throw in a few more tips of my own. Hopefully they might help you.
1. It's your job to win the lane you're in. Some people may elude you into thinking that it's your job to help them win the lane, etc etc, but carries don't put out that much damage early, they don't have reliable stuns and they can set up ganks like a support toon can. The enemy may fear giving kills to your carry, but realistically they fear the support hero the most since that's the hero that will be setting up the carry for those kills.
That being said, here's a few things that will help you win most of your lanes as a support:
- Watch the enemies' tendencies. Does their harasser like to run all the way up to the creepwave to flex his muscles on your carry? Watch for it and queue your carry; "Next time HeroX does that, I'm going to stun him, then you do X, Y, Z".
- If you kill an enemy, walk away and give your carry some breathing room to get levels and farm. This is a great time to re-ward, stack, gank mid, etc. DO NOT leave your lane entirely until your carry can maintain on their own. Too many times I've seen a won lane lose because they got a kill and got cocky. That hero you killed will eventually be coming back with full health and mana; be prepared for them to retaliate! If you leave to help the opposite lane, a good mid player will watch for that. He'll see 3 enemy top, 1 mid, and a solo carry against 2 allies - a quick TP makes that a 3v1 vs your carry. Early deaths on your carry are HUGE setbacks for your win chances.
- Ward in ways that are beneficial to both your carry and your mid. Mid needs to see runes and is less threatened by ganks so long as he has map awareness of MIAs. Your carry on the other hand can give a s*** less about runes, but he is always in danger of ganks. Open a practice game and test ward spots. Get creative. There are a LOT more spots out there than people know about.
- Give your carry a chance to control the creepwave before you help. Too many people whacking away at creeps makes lane control really difficult. If he knows how to do it, then let him handle it until he asks for help. If he is struggling, help with denies. Lane control rule of thumb: to push the lane, hit enemy creeps multiple times and only last-hit denies; to pull the lane, only last-hit enemy creeps, hit denies as soon as they hit half HP; to hold the lane, only last-hit both.
- Pulling: Stacking before pulling is always optimal, but you CAN single pull in rare circumstances (ie the enemy support warded your pull after creeps spawned to force you to single pull and lose lane control). Essentially, the creeps have to be all the way up the lane (to the enemy tower) and you have to kill the neutrals as fast as possible (up to and including using nukes on them). If you do this fast enough, you will only slow down your creeps and not effectively pull the wave. This may take some practice and you may get raged at for trying it, so only try it in a won lane.
2. Warding: A good rule of thumb is to place your first two wards for rune control and then think "Entrances and Movement" for all additional wards. Meaning, your mid only needs two wards to get him through lane phase, after that, the role of wards changes to prevent ganks and set up ganks. Good defensive warding will allow your team to see where the enemy is going - most specifically, if they are coming across the river to hunt your teammates. Therefore, put sight on the entrances to mid, and both sides of the river.
- Overlap wards. Get creative when doing so. For instance, a ward on the edge of the Legion Ancients will show you vision of your mid and the rune. Dropping another ward on the Hellbourne side of the river above the rune will show you the entrance to the Hellbourne Jungle and the rune. A good enemy support will see you place the second ward and counter it without assuming to look for a second. Here's what this just did; a) you now know the enemy has wards there, b) you can still see the rune, and c) you have tricked the enemy into thinking you no longer have vision in that area. It's likely that they may try and gank from there, now. Alert your team to what might be happening and prepare them to counter gank.
- Learn to ward from fog! If the enemy doesn't see you ward, they assume you didn't. Use it, abuse it, love it.
- Don't ward in the same place twice (ESPECIALLY if you just got counter-warded)!!!!!!!!!!! Unless the enemy is stupid beyond all recognition, then they are monitoring your patterns. Just because they don't counter it, doesn't mean they don't know it's there. Keep them guessing.
3. Learn to love Tablet of Command. Don't just buy it, be an expert. It's one of the most powerful items in the game and you can destroy teamfights with one good push. You are NOT Nova_ and therefore are allowed to have SOME farm. When you get that farm, build a Tablet. Push your carries out of danger, push gankers in reach of running enemies, push yourself in range to land that stun on that pesky Magebane, push enemies through Engi ults, push your squishy FA out of Pharoah mummies, push that enemy trying to TP away from Arachna's ult, push Magmus while he's channeling his ult and watch him rage. If you're a support player and this isn't your favorite item in the game (FOR ONLY 2k GOLD!!!!) then you need to reevaluate yourself as a person (j/k but seriously, learn to love and be proficient with this item).
4. Stay in the back. Stay out of the way. Hide in the shadows. Whatever you want to call it, just get the hell out of the way. In a successful teamfight, you should still be alive and so should your carry. If you die to save your carry, then so be it, but your job is not to die. SOOOOO many times I've seen crappy support players say, "Of course I have a lot of deaths, I'm support" or "It's my job"....... NO IT'S NOT. It's no one's "job" to die. That's just stupid. Your job is to protect your carry. Everything you do is to protect your carry. You are their bodyguard, not a kamikaze pilot. If you HAVE TO take a bullet to protect them, well, that is your job, but you don't just die, then how the hell are you going to protect them? Bottom line, get your spells off and get the hell out of the way. Use your Tablet when needed, stun when it's off CD, run when s*** gets dangerous. THAT'S your job. 0-15-10 with 10 wards is NOT a successful support game.
5. Lastly, develop thick skin. Everything that I and others have said above is going to get you raged at in low brackets. Even once you get to the 1600s, you will still hear people say, "30 minutes and Glacius only has boots and a Tablet. GG", "lol @ Andro with no kills", or, when you get 10 seconds alone to farm a Striders recipe you'll hear my FAVORITE quote, "Don't worry guys, Nymph gonna carry us. Keep farming Nymph, you can carry". It is important that you do not respond or try and defend yourself to these people. They don't care what your reasons are, they are playing poorly and need an excuse. It's called "passing the blame" and it is RAMPANT in this game. Don't let it dissuade you. If you are warding, setting up kills, not feeding, then you are doing your job. Just ignore the trolls and keep working on your support skills. It WILL suck, but the appreciation you will get from good players when you play a good support is priceless. You will eventually find that one player who knows how to carry and appreciates your art; Friends List that mofo and work your way up the ladder. The higher you go, the more and more a good support is not only appreciated, but starved for.
Last edited by Jenova26; 08-06-2012 at 05:53 PM.
This is all excellent advice. I've got some replays of me playing support if you care to have a look. I'm by no means the best player but it'll give you a good idea of what you need to do as a support:
Glacius:
91812578 - this one was a 5v5 so you can see a lot of warding and counterwarding by both teams as well as in lane support play such as harassment and setting up kills. This is a while ago so it's not my best game but it's nonetheless a decent idea of playing support.
ARGH! Me hate you, now me wanna go play support.
Oh reply without quote it seems, this is for Jenova26. And you're fully right, supporting in matchmaking is not the same as being ward ***** with striders and vestments and no more. It has to be fun for all of us, also thoose playing support.
Saying that you are very good at carries (in caption) and being 1330 mmr doesn't really add up.
Just because nobody else is saying this, fight those carry instincts: do not fight your carry for creep farm. No matter how good or bad his last hitting is, you trying to compete last hits is going to screw him up at least a little, meaning a good one will not farm THAT well, and a bad one will get next to nothing.
(now if I could just push support instincts away when I'm trying to play carry....not show up for fights before I'm ready and all that)
Supporting's not so bad. I just do the following things and got to 1800+ playing support. Most people are actually decent carries if you make the game piss easy for them.
Note: Your own success may vary...
1. Keep a rune ward up at all times. Helps mid LOADS, prevents ganks. (1 ward per 6 minutes)
2. Ward their pull spot. Past 15 minutes usually you can stop. (3 wards per game)
3. Upgrade courier with your first 200g. (1 time per game)
4. Minimize deaths. If you're getting picked off start walking around only with another ally hero.
5. Minor totems are the best items ever. Stock up on them at the start and you'll be able to afford being the only warder/courier guy.
6. Don't take last hits if anyone else is in lane. Eventually you will learn how to play the game with few items.
Final note: Start with the easy supports. What I played:
- PR appears to be the obvious easy peasy support. But I find him weak in non-coordinated teams who push lanes anyway and he has no CC.
- Witchslayer is awesome.
- Demented Shaman is awesome.
- Honorable mentions:
Topic starter is asking for help becomming a better supprt players, how does your comment bring anything to the table? Ok, it doesn't, please keep quiet then.
tort support?Supporting's not so bad. I just do the following things and got to 1800+ playing support. Most people are actually decent carries if you make the game piss easy for them.
Note: Your own success may vary...
1. Keep a rune ward up at all times. Helps mid LOADS, prevents ganks. (1 ward per 6 minutes)
2. Ward their pull spot. Past 15 minutes usually you can stop. (3 wards per game)
3. Upgrade courier with your first 200g. (1 time per game)
4. Minimize deaths. If you're getting picked off start walking around only with another ally hero.
5. Minor totems are the best items ever. Stock up on them at the start and you'll be able to afford being the only warder/courier guy.
6. Don't take last hits if anyone else is in lane. Eventually you will learn how to play the game with few items.
Final note: Start with the easy supports. What I played:
- PR appears to be the obvious easy peasy support. But I find him weak in non-coordinated teams who push lanes anyway and he has no CC.
- Witchslayer is awesome.
- Demented Shaman is awesome.
- Honorable mentions:
naaaah
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