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The baby is not it's own self. It is not independent. It is a part of a self, a self controlled by the mother.Originally Posted by Hat_Truck
Most people here are pro choice. We just don't like inherent value of life argument. If a would-be parent's quality of life will suffer heavily, and that of the kid, they should abort. My big issue with the 'shitty quality of life, wish I was never born,' is that it is in hindsight. That's like saying I should have favoured Spain instead of Netherlands in UEFA. It's true, but has no meaningful value in hindsight.
Also, adoption that isn't public (foster) costs 5-40k. In today's economy, that is a lot of money that people simply can't afford.
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Do you know how expensive bringing a child from conception to term is?
"Data gathered from 2008 by the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality shows that the charge for an uncomplicated cesarean section is approximately $15,800, while an uncomplicated vaginal birth runs about $9,600."
That's just the procedure for delivering the child. Granted, some of it can be publicly funded, but the same is true of adoption.
My big issue is that there are overwhelming statistical indicators to know something like that. If you're the 4th kid of a woman who has had 3 others with three other men, who is a whore a crack addict for a living, and who survives on welfare alone, what are your chances of success?My big issue with the 'shitty quality of life, wish I was never born,' is that it is in hindsight. That's like saying I should have favoured Spain instead of Netherlands in UEFA. It's true, but has no meaningful value in hindsight.
To me, this argument about "Well they COULD turn out okay" is bafflingly stupid. You wouldn't bet on a horse with a broken leg okay, so quit acting like suddenly we need to have all this "faith". Even with all the evidence at a court trial, there's still a chance that you're jailing or even executing an innocent man - should we stop all sentencing because of this miniscule possibility? There are hundreds of millions or billions of lives already on the Earth that could use some improving, I don't see why we should bring new ones in that don't even have a chance. You could not make a logical argument for that - at best you can poke holes in mine or go the route of Gorb and pretend like I haven't made an argument. We could be using all the money we spend on kids we don't even want on improving the lives of the people already here.
Last edited by Hat_Truck; 07-26-2012 at 07:13 PM.
Eh, except in most cases even the lowest of the low DO benefit us. They work for cheap, they spend all their money, etc. They boost our GDP more than they deteriorate it in most cases. Even all the money spent on private prisons and police force does not make the lower class inefficient.
Once we get to the point where the proletariat can be completely replaced by automated labor you might have an argument, but we aren't there yet. They still serve a relevant purpose even if they aren't happy. They make us happy and we build society on their corpses. Sad but true.
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Seems my post on page 3 went entirely unnoticed, but oh well.
It's subjective. Someone else could believe that life is synonymous with suffering - does that make you or him wrong? It's all a matter of opinion.
As for the whole pro-choice thing, I am against that. It only becomes a choice when its available. For example, why do I not have to right to have my arm amputated by a professional? Why is that illegal, yet scraping out the uterus lining legal? I'll give you a hint - $$$.
So no, I do not believe that abortion should be an elective procedure. It should be used for extreme cases and what not. As for the whole parental suffering thing - I am sure there are people whose lives have been ruined for far less than sex. I say, you made your bed, now sleep in it.
Like I told Beany, I'm not concerned with how the people on the outside feel about it. I honestly believe that people born in the worst situations may wish for death, or may have "opted out" of their "life contract" if given a choice in retrospect. If this could be proven - to me, that's grounds for wanting to stop it from happening in the future.It's subjective. Someone else could believe that life is synonymous with suffering - does that make you or him wrong? It's all a matter of opinion.
I agree with Beany and others that the best way to stop it is to deal with the social issues causing this sort of thing, but if we're not going to spend our resources doing that (doesn't seem like we are), we could at least spare some innocent people a life of misery.
I just can't say I'm a fan of nonconsensual euthanasia.
You're not going to convince anybody it's Euthanasia.
well im not a fan of youth in america. so HA!
Yeah, because all pregnancies are a result of poor planning.
I'd sing you a song, but
I'm just a little hoarse.
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