The part in which you stated that kludra was nerfed, you forgot to mention it was also buffed 3.5 sec stun to 2.5 but they decreased the cool down by about 10 sec.
DR is a very very strong mid hero especially against melees.
If played right you will absolutely dominate.
I haven't played him myself since I don't like his concept but I do have met quite a few to know him and what he does.
The mines are imo far too powerful with the radius being huge. They are. First the trigger radius then the detonation is even further.
This is how DR does to keep melee heroes away from trying to lasthit creeps and so it shall come to pass.
The only thing you can do as a melee is to smile and stay back while he farms for that time being and spam some consumables while he gets his bottle and runes.
Long story short: The mines are far too OP for an already strong hero with ok attack animation and great stat gain.
The detonation radius as mentioned before is too large.
The mana cost is too low.
The damage is too high.
70 mana cost
260 detonation radius
That is on level one.
The mines themselves are very small but don't get tricked by that since they will blow up in your face when you're not even near them.
Last edited by `Krigsbest; 08-03-2012 at 09:59 PM.
It was a huge nerf to the item. Don't kid yourself. The CD reduction doesn't allow you to use it twice during any fights.
OP pretty much hit the nail on the head. DR is my most played hero, and the nerfs to HF,sheep, and null have really hurt him. Despite this, he really only needs slight adjustments. I'd like to see the self inflicted MS slow removed from his second skill and his base movespeed increased.
Edit: I'd also like to address the guy above me who discussed DRs first skill when facing a melee mid. First, DRs first skill is not as powerful as you think against a melee middle. It pushes the lane tremendously, which will allow the enemy mid to contest lasthits with hatchet at their tower. Furthermore, it is almost useless against a ranged mid. Chipper, bomb, tort, slither, PR, pyro, etc should have no problem crushing a DR middle.
Last edited by TheHammer3; 08-05-2012 at 01:36 AM.
'Only the dead have seen the end of HoN downtime.'
I do think that they should remove the slow on Dr that comes with the stun, a stun that does no damage, is basically melee range and "only" lasts for 2.5 seconds should not penalize the hero using it. Fayde's stun does 280 damage, stuns for 2.5 seconds, has like a 1000 range and is AOE. I know that comparing two abilities like this is bad due to the fact that the heroes work in different ways. Although, Doctor and Fayde kind of fit the same role, they're both high mobility gankers that exel at picking off low hp targets. With that said, I do agree that the recent nerf on items such as hellflower and sheep stick has indirectly nerfed the Doctor quite badly since you almost have to pick up at least one of those items to be effective.
-Part of playing mid is to push lanes at the right moment, to snag runes if possible for example.
-It is usualy harder to last hit under a tower than outside tower range.
-A hero has to tank creeps under the tower meaning damage will be dealt to said hero.
-A creepwave that has help from a tower will push the lane forward.
-Claiming that cooldowns don't matter on an item with a hard disable is quite weird, actually, believe it or not. Some heroes has abilities with similar cooldown to current sheepstick and can use them twice in a team fight, moreover an item has the advantage that silences won't stop them from being used. While it was a nerf over all, the cooldown change is actually still a good one. The item was MOSTLY used to get instant cast disable rather than a long disable, just to make it easier to chain other disables on said target, the same can be said about hellflower.
-Please explain why your suggested buffs are spot-on. His base movement speed is low because he has incredible mobility with his ultimate and he is meant to use the ultimate to chase heroes, not be able to chase them down with his base MS alone. This weakness of the hero is well thought out to fit DR's initial design in being mobile if using ultimate properly only. The movement speed reduction is yet another feature to enhance this reliance on ultimate to stay mobile as well as chasing heroes with passive proc. Sure, Magebane has a blink with short CD and still high MS, but he actually has other limitations (no invul, no hard disable, no slows etc).
To add flavour to a hero he needs some considerable weaknesses to balance up the strengths of said hero.
-Things to add about DR's stats, he has high starting armor actually, something that someone else pointed out too but I felt like it could be repeated. He's actually not bad at all at trading auto-hits with heroes.
-People crying about Sacrificial Stone, DR was used even before removal of this item and the players did never really pick it up unless mega snowball, granted that more item choices is never bad for a hero and still has an impact on how a hero plays/scales in a game, I can't help but think that this hero still has an awful lot of viable item choices even so.
-I personally think that the hero is completely fine at the moment and just out of competitive fashion, just as Witch Slayer was some months ago despite being very good, just as Wildsoul has almost always been despite being very good, just as War Beast has always been despite being very strong. Pick-rate is not an indicator that says this hero is bad, he just requires a slight amount of finesse to use, simple as that.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
So in other words you think that a hero that relys on mana pool and regen making him completly item dependent is not required for for a buff/remake or any form of balancing despite his core items all being nerfed?
All it takes is a little finesse?
I was hoping you'd respond to the actual thread which was about in-direct nerfs to the hero rather then opiniate what others have said in this thraed.
Last edited by MikeTAR; 08-06-2012 at 12:15 AM.
DR can cast his combos multiply times without any big mana items. His starting mana pool is so big that he can use his Q just to proc his E without bigger mana problems. Mana regen isnt as important as well. With Q being so cheap you can kill endless waves of creeps with just a manatube.
Only place where mana pool/regeneration comes into play is using ultimate but if you waste 500 mana worth teleport just to dodge 1 skill or proc your E than you must be rly skilled DR player. The fact is that you can dodge multiply skills with mini teleports being dirt cheap.
DR isnt insanelly mana dependant hero, He is just a hero who benefits greatly from additional mana which is a bonus not a drawback.
I want to repeat myself once more.
Reduce the self-slow in his W from 3 seconds to 1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds and the hero is a perfect example of what I consider balanced.
Last edited by Jezu; 08-07-2012 at 05:56 AM.
Either way, the thread has a point. DR has been nerfed indirectly through different elements mostly that being items. He should receive a bit of a buff to help him out. There is no argueing with that logic, If he wasn't imba before, now he's weaker. Therfor balance him back a bit so he is as good as he was. Argueing other balance issues with him is not relevant here. You guys are all saying common knowledge things about this hero. The Thread has a solid point and I hope S2 sees it.
Every ****ing single intellect hero has been nerfed by that logic, Torturer, Defiler, Necrolyte, Aluna... Puppet Master.
They are still good heroes. There is nothing indicating that DR's power was there BECAUSE OF THE ITEMS. His powers lie in his skill set, it must be hard to realize this I understand.
Moreover, I think every single hero has been nerfed indirectly during this time as many many other items also has been nerfed since DR was last picked up, if you fail to deny this then there really is no hope for any of you to understand that DR is fine.
It does in fact require a bit of finesse to play DR, but I suppose you're all completely perfect players and still can't win with this hero. Mana management is key, you can't just expect to mindlessly spam ultimate and think that as skill. Long jumps will obviously cost you some mana.
EVEN IF HE ACTUALLY NEEDS BUFFS I THINK IT IS NOT REALLY ELEGANT TO NEGATE CORE WEAKNESSES OF THE HERO.
I would rather see a buff to perhaps damage of ultimate, pull distance of stun on early levels, debuff duration of passive, perhaps even bonus damage from passive or slow amount slightly.
Stats are like women in bikinis, they are interesting to look at however they don't show you everything.
I think the hero itself is just fine. Though I agree that the item nerfs have had an indirect negative effect on him, which isn't that great. Still a decent hero though.
HoN needs an ingame tournament function like in Wc3 / Bloodline Champions
Yes these item nerfs have also indirectly nerfed other intel heroes etc. But what you forgot to mention is that the heroes you listed above have the luxury of opting for items such as Hotbl, Push book, Nomes, Sac Stone, Atrolabe etc and still be effective in game. Even puppet master who can build raw damage and a shrunken head. Go try build DR in MM with phase boots, hotbl and any other item that I haven’t mentioned in the original post so I can watch the reply and have a laugh.
DR’s items are limited in order to play him effectively.. Yes his power relies in his skill-set but his greatest skill is his ultimate, without it he’s pretty much a slow walking target.
Read my original post again look at his core items.
Bottle – can no longer bottle courier. Before 6 you have a high change of losing runes, thus losing the lane.
Hellflower – cost double the mana to cast now.
DR is strong on paper but it’s become far too hard for him to snowball and if he does he soon loses his effectiveness in the late game.
DR is my top played on two accounts and I’m at a 1700 level (wei2smithie) so consider me a mid-tier public player if you will, I know him like the back of my hand, so your comments about a little finesse are highly retarded as it shows you clearly have no real time game experience with the hero.
Reason why a slow was added to DR's stun:
Once you reach 6, the slow on stun isn't really much of a problem anymore. That slow is designed for his laning phase to ensure that he can't solo kill a ranged hero before lvl 6.
The way it works is that the slow ensure that once you use it, you won't be able to chase. So the only way to effectively use it for a kill in lane is to wait for the opponent to go on you. Then you trade hits, Q a bit and when he's about to run away or before that you use your stun to finish him.
If you remove that slow, DR can now use his stun offensively and chase his opponent down which will grant him strong killing power before 6.
Granting him that extra killing power and lane presence will make DR too strong. DR already has alot of good things going for him at mid. (rune control, very high dmg, strong attack animation, high armor, ranged, good farming nuke, a slow, ability to kill most heroes once he reach 6.) The only things he lack to be the perfect mid hero is 100 more range and an offensive stun. Granting him the ability to offensively kill his opponent before 6 will make him too strong.
As for his picking rate in competitive play, the big error many competitors have made was to only run him solo mid, which influenced negatively his picking rate considering the amount of ganks mid has to deal with. But this is about to change as i've seen multiple teams use my DR strat in scrims with good results, so i expect DR to be picked up soon in tournament games.
1.5/2/2.5/3 second slow duration will not make DR too strong, it will fit him into that perfect level of balance where Moon Queen and Bubbles are already sitting at.