Melee vs Ranged Barracks!

[[RCT]Reldnahc]

Incorrect, Melee and Ranged creeps both grant 38-47 gold per kill. Siege grants 56-80 gold. Melee also grant 62 EXP whilst Ranged grant 41 EXP, Siege grants 88 EXP.

You reduce the gold bounty of more creeps is the point he was making.

[[SBD]ShAdOw_LaNcE]

Either super/mega range creeps need to deal more damage, or the rax need to be re-worked.

For example, what if the rax were armor and weapon storehouses? Kill the opponents, and you plunder them to make your guys stronger (makes more sense too XD).

Armor rax would increase the HP and armor of the creeps, and the Weapon rax would increase the damage of the creeps. It gives you a harder decision if the numbers are done right, as you either can take towers down faster, or make it harder for the other team to farm the wave (higher HP and armor would also obviously push because the creeps would be tankier), and hell the armor could give a little bit of damage too, while the weapons also give a little HP and armor.

Overall I don't see why there's this line drawn between melee and range creeps, they should all just be buffed together.

[[AOWL]SmurfinBird]

You reduce the gold bounty of more creeps is the point he was making.

Sorry, but no. The quote states: "Melee creeps are worth more gold per kill"

Edit: To reply more on topic, the "Armour" rax would make more sense to increase magic armour, making it harder to push back with AoE heroes. That would at least force more of a decision, though overall I'm not in favour of the suggested change, not that this is a suggestion subforum.

[Example27]

As it is now, it's totally useless to destroy the Ranged rax before the Melee ones and everyone knows that. It's isn't really a balance problem as neither side suffers from it staying that way.

But as far as strategies go, changing the Ranged rax effects on the creeps could potentially bring more depth to the game. For example the enemy team has very good AoE damage dealers and thus, proposed, magic armor increase could be quite beneficial for pushing the lane, but if the enemy team has a lot of physical damage then it would be quite useless to destroy the Ranged rax.

Only item, currently available, that increases magical protection is Barrier Idol and that only last for a short amount of time while the physical armor increases are many and they even stack. But considering that Mana is a precious resource while the auto attacks cost "only" time and become really effective only during later stages of midgame and in late game.

So I would support the magic armor increase reward for destroying Ranged rax because a team would favor that if they are facing a lot of magical aoe damage, but magic armor increase should not be huge as not to totally make those spells useless, it should just prevent the one shooting of the creep wave.

[Stehlampe]

Just came up with an idea, which needs to be discussed and balanced a lot to not make pushing strats OP.

The basic idea behind this is the following:
Why do you push raxes?
1. So you can attack the World Tree or the other thing from the Hellbourne :P (of course)
2. To get a lane pushed by itself.
3. To deny gold and XP.

But lets take a closer look at the last point. Is it really like that? In my opinion you are denying yourself just as much XP and gold as the opposing team, when destroying rax.
Why? Because your lane gets automaticly pushed and you have no way of static farming the lane anymore. Especially if you have a pushing team with one hard-carry this will hurt him a lot.

So what if we go away from this "Melee and Ranged - Rax" thing and talk about a completely new idea:

"Push-Rax" (instead of melee rax):

-By destroying them you get Super Creeps with normal gold and XP award (talking balance: Maybe more Gold and XP for the enemy?)

"Gold - Rax" (instead of Ranged Rax):

-By destroying them your Creeps give way less gold and XP to the enemy.

Taking both rax should end up with creeps like they are now when getting both rax.

Since the Melee rax at their current stage give both advantages i guess this change would make getting only one barracks less attractive.
Also it would bring More Strategical Depth into the discussion which rax to take.

You could also make a fusion between how it is now and my idea, by simply nerfing the gold and XP loss when taking melee rax and severely buffing the gold and xp loss by takign ranged baracks.

[Antimodus]

I like this idea.
Though destroying the push-rax would cause the lane to break the gold-rax by iteself, which makes them similar to the dynamic of melee/ranged rax of today.

But at least pushing the lane and killing only the gold-rax would become a legitimate strategy. In the current system, killing only the ranged rax and leaving the melee intact is actually worse than not killing any rax.

[GregerMoek]

Sorry, but no. The quote states: "Melee creeps are worth more gold per kill"

Edit: To reply more on topic, the "Armour" rax would make more sense to increase magic armour, making it harder to push back with AoE heroes. That would at least force more of a decision, though overall I'm not in favour of the suggested change, not that this is a suggestion subforum.

Having a fact wrong and making a point is different, sorry.

-My point was that enemy income is decreased more from melee rax dead instead of ranged rax dead.
-I simply made it sound even worse when I said that melee creeps are worth more per kill, which you so brilliantly showed was wrong.

Wrong by me to assume this melee rax advantage was bigger than it actually is, point still made.

[[E]EmptyOne]

If the siege units would be boosted, think what would happend if parasite took controll over it. ggwp

[[BxB]mazoomy]

I like the idea of push/gold rax because it adds more strategy to taking out rax's. In its current form, the rax's feel like very "un-fleshed-out" aspects of the game which have the potential for so much more. When you push the rax's it is always melee first while ranged is a luxury, making it brainless due to the overpowered nature of the melee rax when compared to the ranged rax.

Now it doesn't necessarily have to be push/gold rax's, but some kind of change to introduce real decision making when time allows only a single rax would be great. What I find appealing about the push/gold rax idea is having an indirect (reducing enemy gold income) and direct (passive lane pushing) reward for each rax, each with its own drawbacks; no pushing power or creep survivability from the gold rax, creating a free farming lane for the enemy due to passive pushing and no gold reduction from push rax. It would also encourage the pushing team to destroy one over the other based on how fast they feel they will push again or how far into the game the push occurs because the gold rax would be the better choice in a post-genocide push fairly early in an even game, and the push rax would be superior if the team plans to keep on pushing immediately after.

Something I came up with that would be in this vein of thought without being a suggestion would be for the ranged rax to increase your lanes pushing power more than the melee rax. What this would mean is that when the lane is left alone by both sides, a ranged rax lane would push into the enemy base faster than a melee rax lane, but at the same time the ranged rax lane would be far more susceptible to quickly being pushed back then the melee rax. The benefits of the melee rax would have to be reduced to make this happen, I would believe, but I think the idea here is better than what it currently is. In terms of the gold gained from creeps, I think the best way to handle this would be to just impose half the current total (both rax's destroyed) gold reduction for each rax on all creeps, meaning that a single rax would reduce the gold rewarded per creep to ~75% while both rax's would reduce it to ~50% (I'm not exactly sure what the current numbers are).

A change that may make this happen would be to give the ranged creeps splash damage or a bouncing attack so that they can hit the entire, or at least most of the, creep wave with each attack. If this would prove to be insufficient in testing then the damage, % splash, and number of ranged creeps could be tinkered with to achieve the desired effect. They could then push the lane very fast but would provide no survivability benefits to the creeps meaning they'd be burst down just as fast as before.

[[TECH]Gorb]

People were invested in this topic, but the connotations are far-reaching and are unlikely to reach consensus (to the point where S2 can collate feedback). Archived.