[2.6.10] Pebbles

[SirVH]

If it needs no explanation at all then why should it be brought up in a thread which discussions aspects that need mentioning?

Then the proper answer is "we are not discussing Pebbles with Portal Key, we are discussing about Chuck on Null" and not "please provide evidence about x or y".

[SirVH]

You're completely missing the point. Riip said the character changes drastically with PK, see the examples on my post. It's not about pebbles being op or not.

Edit: there was one post before this one, and this post is a answer to that. I'm only saying that because I didn't double post. o.o

[Sandtrap]

Wrote this on my phone so please forgive any errors/the poor paragraph grouping.

There's been a big theme of 'consistency' happening lately with balance patches, and with that in mind - I would like to draw attention across to a hero that has been more or less a constant fixture on the competitive scene for a long while.

Pebbles is a port of Tiny the Stone Giant from DotA, his main difference being that instead of Craggy Exterior's stun chance within 300 units - he has debuff reduction ala the LoL mechanic Tenacity (for ease of explanation).

There are 2 inconsistent 'artifacts' that Pebbles retains from his DotA counterpart, which I feel have no warranted explanation for their presence, and impinge on making any meaningful changes to him balance-wise.

In order of (my perceived) importance:
- Self-target with Chuck to avoid Nullstone with his main single-target ability
- 4 separate impacts with Stalagmites render the ability of certain heroes to purge stuns useless (Monarch, Accursed etc.)

The first is an anomaly that I can't even fathom the reason for it existing. There is no meaningful use for Chucking onto yourself outside of negating the one item that is meant to prevent the exact occurrence of what you're doing - and all it serves to do is make Pebbles disproportionately more powerful than any other gankers who rely on single target abilities to do so.

The second I feel is in tandem with the whole 2 second stun at level 1 thing that Pebbles has going. His stun being effectively unpurgeable devalues the effects of heroes who have such skills, and his constant ban/pick presence currently goes a long way towards ensuring that otherwise relatively fine heroes are not worth picking in the few situations they would be warranted when a Pebbles on the table.

Thoughts?

Toss:
Nullstone still affects the ability, just not when you aren't targetting said person (consistent with how nullstone works with other spells). If anything this could be compared to hammerstorm using his stun (also a targetted aoe ability) on a target without the nullstone and ending up stunning the nullstoned target aswell.

Most other pure gankers like ws, dw, fayde (exception, pyro) aren't heavily affected by it either. I'd even argue that dw/ws are less affected by it, since they disable it for a negligable cost, allowing the follow up to use targetted spells aswell.

Most gankers build items like hellflower/sheepstick/tablet/codex which nullstone is effective against regardless. Using toss to cancel out the nullstone (to allow hf usage) is quite significant to pebbles compared to the cost for some other gankers (dw/ws) to disable it.

TLDR: The reduction nullstone gives to pebbles power is not inconsistent with how much it affects other gankers, nor is the mechanic inconsistent.

Making pebbles unable to toss to himself would be an indirect buff to nullstone and heroes using this item in relation to pebbles. Personally I don't feel that these heroes are the ones suffering the most from pebbles, so IF he needs further nerfs I think that one affecting his power vs all heroes, like a toss cd increase/stun reduction, would be more suitable.


Stalagmites:
As stated this brings both benefits (that you brought up) and disadvantages (damage over time). To me changes in favor of 'consistency' have gone too far when they remove flavor from the game. Different stuns having a bit different functionality and advantages/drawbacks adds flavor to the game and makes it more interesting/entertaining, at least to me.


Regarding pebbles power, it's obvious that the hero is incredibly strong compared to most of the hero pool considering that he's been a top/ban pick for months now. If you aim to make other gankers in a similar role (like dw) a just as viable as pebbles he obviously needs a nerf. Though personally I find the hero a lot more entertaining/with more flavor than deadwood and if I could chose I'd rather have pebbles remain the prime ganker pick in most games and leave deadwood in a niche role (stronger vs tanks), though I doubt this relationship would change with a small nerf to pebbles (like a toss cd increase).

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

ws, dw, fayde (exception, pyro) aren't heavily affected by it either. I'd even argue that dw/ws are less affected by it, since they disable it for a negligable cost, allowing the follow up to use targetted spells aswell.

Well, the comparison should be between gankers with relatively low cool-downs on their ganking potential. So say, Devourer and Flint Beastwood (to some extend). Both the heroes and Pebbles can deal huge amounts of damage every 30 seconds or less. And both, Devourer and Flint, have a portion of their burst mitigated by Null-Stone.

In case of Fayde, her burst is quite low. If most squishies can survive her solo ganks through buying a mystic and steam boots (or a couple fortified bracers), it is safe to assume that getting a nullstone will make them beefy enough to stay alive after her burst. In this case, Fayde will want to get Codex to up her burst to fatal levels. Well, guess what? Codex is blocked by nullstone.

Of course, this is just my take on the matter at hand.

[Sky`]

This nerf would break pebbles intiation capabilities in the late game which is all he has at that point.

[Irysa]

Pebbles is an unfortunate requirement in the game because quite frankly, if there weren't pants on head retarded gankers like him then the entire game would slow down a hell of a lot after the laning phase. Being able to pick people off instantly for being out of position without them or their team being able to do anything is pretty much the only thing that stops stuff like healspam, stormspirit/tablet abuse etc on heroes so the fight can actually, you know, start, without somebody litearlly walking into the enemy team while the rest of them afk.

Arguably, most other "instagib" gankers have built in ways to close the gap and get to their target for the combo, Pebbles does not, which makes him arguably significantly weaker in laning, but boosts his power tenfold with a portal key because he has the fastest/cheapest combo compared tot he others.

If you ask me the real "problem" here lies in that killing enemies is ****ing hard if people play smart beacuse positioning is critical. That's why portal key, the item that basically allows instant pinpoint positioning, is so strong.

And by further extension of that, poor positioning vs instant positioning (aka Publics vs Ganker with PK) = totally wrecked.

[Sandtrap]

Well, the comparison should be between gankers with relatively low cool-downs on their ganking potential. So say, Devourer and Flint Beastwood (to some extend). Both the heroes and Pebbles can deal huge amounts of damage every 30 seconds or less. And both, Devourer and Flint, have a portion of their burst mitigated by Null-Stone.

In case of Fayde, her burst is quite low. If most squishies can survive her solo ganks through buying a mystic and steam boots (or a couple fortified bracers), it is safe to assume that getting a nullstone will make them beefy enough to stay alive after her burst. In this case, Fayde will want to get Codex to up her burst to fatal levels. Well, guess what? Codex is blocked by nullstone.

Of course, this is just my take on the matter at hand.

You think flint is more similar to pebbles than fayde?:P Anyways, fayde's burst is at about the same level as pebbles from 11 onwards (and most squishies can survive pebbles with steams+mystics aswell). The fact that faydes codex is blocked by null is kinda my point, so is pebbles codex/hf if he decides to go for one (unless he uses toss to cancel it, which is a bigger dmg hit than most gankers use to cancel it).

The fact that pebbles has incredibly low cds on his ganking spells is imo the thing that's inconsistent about the hero compared to other gankers, not the toss/stalag mechanic. Hence I'd prefer to see a toss cd increase over changes to these mechanics. You could argue that dev also has some very low cds on his spells, but the fact that he's heavily reliant on a skillshot (and deals damage over time) kinda compensates for this. Flint, well, he's not a ganker and doesn't have close to the burst of any ganking hero in the game, just like most carries he has a relatively short cd nuke but not the burst to kill anyone solo at an early stage.

[[TECH]Gorb]

Then the proper answer is "we are not discussing Pebbles with Portal Key, we are discussing about Chuck on Null" and not "please provide evidence about x or y".

Any speculation about a hero can be valid assuming the speculation is validated by supporting arguments. This thread is about Pebbles and a player voicing complaints about excessive synergy with particular items is perfectly valid - assuming the aforementioned supporting arguments.

The correct answer is always "provide evidence" because there is no point in pointlessly restricting a topic if discussion potential exists.

Kindly stop telling me how to moderate and please focus on supporting your own arguments, thanks. If you have a complaint about moderation, please direct it via PM (either to myself, another Balance Moderator or a Global Moderator).

[[B4WC]FurryTuna]

You think flint is more similar to pebbles than fayde?:P

Flint at Level 7 deals 655 damage every 20 seconds
Pebbles at Level 7 deals 710 damage every 20 seconds
Fayde at Level 7 deals 665 damage every 90 seconds

One could argue that because of the frequency, Flint ganking potential is like Pebbles (at early levels). Although a lot weaker.

Anyways, fayde's burst is at about the same level as pebbles from 11 onwards (and most squishies can survive pebbles with steams+mystics aswell). The fact that faydes codex is blocked by null is kinda my point, so is pebbles codex/hf if he decides to go for one (unless he uses toss to cancel it, which is a bigger dmg hit than most gankers use to cancel it).

The fact that pebbles has incredibly low cds on his ganking spells is imo the thing that's inconsistent about the hero compared to other gankers, not the toss/stalag mechanic. Hence I'd prefer to see a toss cd increase over changes to these mechanics.

Well, you can't increase toss CD to be somewhere around 60 to 90 seconds (normal ganking frequency for usual gankers). Tbh, I don't think the hero needs any sort of nerfs, his low armor allows high pew pew on him early on to delay the portal key to the part of the game where his burst no longer is fatal on main targets.

You could argue that dev also has some very low cds on his spells, but the fact that he's heavily reliant on a skillshot (and deals damage over time) kinda compensates for this.

Well then one should argue that because it is a skillshot, nullstone should not negate his ultimate. Because while PK Pebbs requires no skill and can deal his full damage on high frequency, PK Devo should get the same treatment. However, I personally am not a fan of such comparative arguments.

I was merely pointing out some possible counter-arguments that could be made.

[Sandtrap]

Flint at Level 7 deals 655 damage every 20 seconds
Pebbles at Level 7 deals 710 damage every 20 seconds
Fayde at Level 7 deals 665 damage every 90 seconds

One could argue that because of the frequency, Flint ganking potential is like Pebbles (at early levels). Although a lot weaker.

At one specific level while not scaling between 7-10 at all, while not providing a stun (cruical for ganking). I'd argue that fayde is better in a gank with her ulti down than flint is with his up at this stage.

Well, you can't increase toss CD to be somewhere around 60 to 90 seconds (normal ganking frequency for usual gankers). Tbh, I don't think the hero needs any sort of nerfs, his low armor allows high pew pew on him early on to delay the portal key to the part of the game where his burst no longer is fatal on main targets.

Assuming that you didn't bother nerfing his ulti bat+the combo dmg you could probably bring up the cd to 30/40 without breaking the hero entirely, in the current state I just feel that putting the cd at 15-20 seconds could be a suitable nerf IF (I don't think so) he needs one. You could also mention the fact that the heroes with a longer cd on their ulti's usually have shorted cds on their ccs than pebbles, arguably this somewhat compensates for his short combo cd.

Well then one should argue that because it is a skillshot, nullstone should not negate his ultimate. Because while PK Pebbs requires no skill and can deal his full damage on high frequency, PK Devo should get the same treatment. However, I personally am not a fan of such comparative arguments.

I was merely pointing out some possible counter-arguments that could be made.

Not making his ultimate be affected by nullstone would be perfectly fine balance wise (especially since dev is somewhat weak against the heroes who goes null already) but THAT would be inconsistent if anything:P. Dev does have his share of benefits with a superior disable and (arguably) the strongest displacement spell in the game. Gotta agree that comparative arguments like these are quite silly though, unless you want to make basically all gankers identical and I'm a strong advocate in favor of variety and flavor when it comes to heroes (even if this does make it harder to balance).

Not really sure what my purpose of typing this is/was at all, but I'll post it for the hell of it^^.

[SirVH]

The correct answer is always "provide evidence" because there is no point in pointlessly restricting a topic if discussion potential exists.

Then I go back to my first question: does he really needs to provide evidence on how Portal Key makes Pebbles so strong?

[[TECH]Gorb]

I don't know how to make myself clearer; you are evidently having trouble with my posts.

Yes.

[girard`]

Pebbles is decent without a PK depending on team lineup. He uses PK to lineup kills - however it is commong to rush this item. Pebbles has a rather low Mana Pool to begin with and this lowers that mana pool even more. 120+120+75=315mana to combo. I personally believe, if you have the lineup to help you support, that it's worth putting that 2150g towards another item earlier on to help with mana....grave locket, hellflower (at least one of the arcanas). I am not saying PK is not a core item to Pebbles' existence, I just feel that rushing it isnt always the necessity.

[[ANHZ]RikiP]

^ no one rushes pk. you get steamboots and chalice/bottle/power supply then pk...

[girard`]

Saying the phrase "you get..." implies everyone does what you're saying. Everyone implies every person who has ever played Pebbles in Heroes of Newerth. Not everyone does what you recommend or what you say to do. I've seen plenty of people, even competitive level, not finish steamboots (for example).

What you're saying is the better way to do it, but don't imply everyone does that.

[bleakfaith]

Other than getting a headache from reading, pebs is fine.
It's not hard to understand him and rarely I have found myself beaten by players playing peb.
He's just a ganker.

[Strayreaper]

Toss:Nullstone still affects the ability, just not when you aren't targetting said person (consistent with how nullstone works with other spells). If anything this could be compared to hammerstorm using his stun (also a targetted aoe ability) on a target without the nullstone and ending up stunning the nullstoned target aswell.

Making pebbles unable to toss to himself would be an indirect buff to nullstone and heroes using this item in relation to pebbles. Personally I don't feel that these heroes are the ones suffering the most from pebbles, so IF he needs further nerfs I think that one affecting his power vs all heroes, like a toss cd increase/stun reduction, would be more suitable.

Stalagmites:As stated this brings both benefits (that you brought up) and disadvantages (damage over time). To me changes in favor of 'consistency' have gone too far when they remove flavor from the game. Different stuns having a bit different functionality and advantages/drawbacks adds flavor to the game and makes it more interesting/entertaining, at least to me.

1. This is nothing like hammerstorm using his stun. If hammer is 1v1 against another hero he cannot stun them. Pebbles CAN use his single target ability by targetting it on himself, so essentially for hammer's stun to be the same it would be if he ran up the the enemy hero and targeted his stun on himself, stunning the area around him.Therefore to make pebbles' chuck consistent with other single target abilities his ability to self-target should be removed. I believe that this is the direction that pebbles should take.

2. If an item is buffed against just one hero then it is not a buff to the item (well it is, but should not be considered one). It is just a nerf to the hero. This is because if a pebbles is not in the game the item is exactly the same. Yes, the item is stronger against pebbles, but that is only because he has been made weaker against it.

3. I agree that removing slight differences in mechanics like pebbles' stun would be a bad thing for the game though. There really aren't enough heroes that can remove stuns for this to really make a difference (let alone heroes that are played commonly)

[[eR]Ekamo]

The consensus in this thread seems to be: Chuck is single target spell on target when he targets chuck onto himself.

Thread closed.