[2.6.10] Pebbles

[[TECH]Gorb]

It's a leftover from the Wc3 engine, where the Thrown target essentially entered the Avalanched zone again, thus taking the damage another time. And it's 20/40. From 900 to 860.

You have royally confused me, as the post I was arguing against mentioned 40/80. And now you say it's 20/40.

[[XV]Ultimate]

I screwed up by saying 40/80 I forgot where I got that from, sorry Gorb. We both made a fool of ourselves.

[MikeTAR]

In my eyes I see the whole nullstone pebbles chuck argument like this.

Yes he can chuck on himself ignoring a nullstone charge, but isn’t it balanced that the damage is less when he does that.

Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the target take like half damage if Pebbles can’t target the hero directly?

[[TECH]Gorb]

It's okay, if I was a better player I'd know the details myself. Everybody makes mistakes from time to time

Though considering how much I pick Pebbles, I really should've been sure myself.

[SirVH]

(2) If it is settled here that "Pebbles shouldn't be able to wombo combo Nullstoned targets because it defeats the purpose of buying nullstone, which is to avoid ganks", then Witch Slayer, Succubus, Fayde (although her damage is less, especially at earlier levels, and the much-needed Codex for solo ganks does get negated by nullstone) and Deadwood gank mechanisms should all be reassessed. I fear follow-up questions like "Why does Witch Slayer mana drain pop nullstone?", "Why does Fayde Shadow-Cripple not get absorbed by nullstone?", "Why does Succubus's Smite absorb nullstone or Deadwood's log throw for that matter?" would ensue.

Why would people complain about single target skills triggering Null Stone?

[foxmindedguy]

Why would people complain about single target skills triggering Null Stone?

Dunno, people complain about everything.

[changlingbob]

So the thought that occured to me regarding Pebbles refers primarily to the nullstone question.

Nullstone blocks single target enemy spells. Chuck targets a single target, but grabs the nearest unit. The solution proposed is to avoid the self-target chuck, but that doesn't actually change how nullstone is just ignored, it just stops you ignoring it while totally mano-a-mano. If you can bring along any other unit to chuck to in range, you can still ignore the actual target you want to affect's nulstone with a single target spell. (noted, bringing another unit of any kind makes getting the chuck right harder)

How large of an effect would it be if chuck could not select a unit to throw with a nullstone shield and popped it accordingly? Its possible this could have the direct opposite effect, as building nullstone against pebbles would suddenly become super effective, ensuring he can't modify your position, as well as the other gank-related benefits. To my eyes it would keep the intent of nullstone blocking single target spells more than it does currently against pebbles though.

[[TECH]Gorb]

I would prefer the direct abuse removed, instead of the entire ability (as Nullstone would then hard-counter Pebbles as he doesn't build anything that pops an ability on the target nor does he have any ability that can pop Nullstone).

[MushidoZ]

Anaka forgot to mention it in the first post, but I believe this is really important. Dota is an almost direct port from Dota, yes, aside from the craggy exterior skill being different, as he mentioned. HOWEVER, that is NOT the only difference.

http://www.playdota.com/heroes/stone-giant

* Dota Tiny DOES NOT automatically deal double damage with avalanche when he chucks someone (if you time yourself, you can avalanche, then toss, then hope he falls back in the avalanche

* Dota Tiny DOES NOT damage towers with chuck (unverified)

* Dota Tiny has an aghanim upgrade


And since the craggy is different.. Tiny can be disabled, while Pebbles is hard to.

[Hubaris]

That is incorrect. Tiny still damages towers with Toss.

http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Tiny

The playdota doesn't mention it but its true to that also.

[[f13]`11411181]

It's not important because Tiny's Agha upgrade, Craggy Exterior vs Slab Skin, and the details of how Tiny combos - have very little effect on the phenomenon of Pebbles targeting himself with Chuck that I'm talking about.

Yeah, they're more different than I alluded to in my original post - grats.

[PzKw]

Amazingly after that whole post by Mushidoz, he missed the single largest difference between the two heroes: Tiny's avalanche has half the stun duration of Pebbles (less still depending on how many instances of avalanche land)... Elementary mistake...

[Hubaris]

Untrue as well. Tiny has a 1 Second Stun Duration, which:

While the duration of the stun from Avalanche is 1 second after the spell finishes, Avalanche itself lasts for 1 second, meaning units hit by it will be stunned for a full two seconds.

Pebbles lasts for 1.25 seconds but the last impact occurs at 0.75 seconds (0.0, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75 impact times), having a grand total of 2.0 seconds as well if I'm correct with this scripting.

name="Affector_Rocky_Ability1"
    
    radius="200"
    lifetime="1000"
    impactdelay="200"
    impactinterval="250"
    maxintervals="4"
    targetselection="all"
    targetscheme="enemy_units"
    effecttype="Magic"
    destroytrees="true"
>
    <oninterval>
        <playeffect effect="effects/affector.effect" source="target_position" target="" occlude="true" />
    </oninterval>
    
    <onimpact>
        <applystate name="State_Stunned" duration="1250" />
        <applystate name="State_Rocky_Ability1" duration="250" />
        <damage effecttype="Magic" amount="25,45,65,75" />
    </onimpact>

Although not 'double' PzKw, it is still slightly more.

EDIT: Thanks for the notice on impacts.

[[f13]`11411181]

Stun impacts at t=0, so 0, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75

[Hubaris]

Then I stand corrected. I edited it to effect at 0.25 from 0.0; should have trusted my gut.
Fixing post for accuracy.

[Riip]

Pebbles is just too effective with PK. The combo with its current cooldown/damage and PK makes it too effective. Espacially with the ease it can be executed repeatedly and the cost/time required to get to that dominating stage. Pebbles might seem okay as a hero but incombination with PK its a whole different ball game.

Please consider balancing.

[[TECH]Gorb]

If you could provide any form of evidence to support your unsubstantiated claims, that would be good.

[Riip]

It could be that the people involved in these matches are not really the best players and I am not an expert in HON gameplay therefore I only said to consider balancing and didnt state it as a demand or fact.

I bothered to post here about pebbles due to the below matches I have been involved in where our team has felt utterly helpless because of the PK combo nuke. I am sure the pros can counter everything but from a player at my skill level it does seem overwhelming. Some match id's below. I understand that you might say that the opposing team was too noob and pebbles was just a great player and that does happen but its never so harsh. PK nuke, player dead. Zero chance to react. Repeated every few seconds.

98925426
98681600
98993800

I am not pro in HON gameplay so would only request the experts to have a look and rule on it.

[SirVH]

If you could provide any form of evidence to support your unsubstantiated claims, that would be good.

I'm sorry Gorb, but that post seriously need any form of evidence? It's the same as saying "please, provide any form of evidence that Fayde's game change when you get a Codex".

I know you guys are fighting against some silly posts, but really, there's some things that needs no explanation at all, like Pebbles with a Portal Key. What will be next, provide evidence to support why a PK on Behemott or Tempest are game breakers?

[Hubaris]

I'm sorry Gorb, but that post seriously need any form of evidence? It's the same as saying "please, provide any form of evidence that Fayde's game change when you get a Codex".

I know you guys are fighting against some silly posts, but really, there's some things that needs no explanation at all, like Pebbles with a Portal Key. What will be next, provide evidence to support why a PK on Behemott or Tempest are game breakers?

If it needs no explanation at all then why should it be brought up in a thread which discussions aspects that need mentioning? In the OP he is focusing on the inconsistency that Chuck has and how you can self target with it, completely allowing him to bypass an item which is used to counter those types of situations; not as much about the burst the hero has itself. Pebbles with a PK (assuming ganking) has the same mathematical burst every time and can be counted for; something like a Behemoth or Tempest is much harder to measure as their impact changes more situationally (granted that Chuck has lots of utility in itself).

If you are dying to Pebbles, you can stop it by buying Claws and or Vestments and it is usually enough to survive his damage combo. He has raw burst, thats his 'thing'.