[2.6.10] Pebbles

[[f13]`11411181]

There's been a big theme of 'consistency' happening lately with balance patches, and with that in mind - I would like to draw attention across to a hero that has been more or less a constant fixture on the competitive scene for a long while.

Pebbles is a port of Tiny the Stone Giant from DotA, his main difference being that instead of Craggy Exterior's stun chance within 300 units - he has debuff reduction ala the LoL mechanic Tenacity (for ease of explanation).

There are 2 inconsistent 'artifacts' that Pebbles retains from his DotA counterpart, which I feel have no warranted explanation for their presence, and impinge on making any meaningful changes to him balance-wise.

In order of (my perceived) importance:
- Self-target with Chuck to avoid Nullstone with his main single-target ability
- 4 separate impacts with Stalagmites render the ability of certain heroes to purge stuns useless (Monarch, Accursed etc.)

The first is an anomaly that I can't even fathom the reason for it existing. There is no meaningful use for Chucking onto yourself outside of negating the one item that is meant to prevent the exact occurrence of what you're doing - and all it serves to do is make Pebbles disproportionately more powerful than any other gankers who rely on single target abilities to do so.

The second I feel is in tandem with the whole 2 second stun at level 1 thing that Pebbles has going. His stun being effectively unpurgeable devalues the effects of heroes who have such skills, and his constant ban/pick presence currently goes a long way towards ensuring that otherwise relatively fine heroes are not worth picking in the few situations they would be warranted when a Pebbles on the table.

Thoughts?

[[TECH]Gorb]

Approved!

[[NU]Tomate]

The pebbles targetting himself to prevent nullstone effect from occuring is to me, more of a nice use of the mechanic behind the spell than anything else... This is a great use of the fact that pebbles can throw someone with a nullstone since it isn't targeting that person. Also, the fact that you can target yourself, effectively throwing that person as close to you as possible is just an amazing / creative way to use his skill...

If they want to fix this, they can change pebbles so that he can no longer target himself with the spell... but overall, it remains a nice way of using his skill and I would not want to see throw 'grabbing' being blocked by null stone. Blinking by side someone with a null stone and throwing him back into your team must remain a legit / possible move to do.

As for your other issue... I see no issue there... Pebbles' stun does occur in multiple instances. This has the good side of being virtually impossible to remove with remove debuff spells... but it has the downside of giving the enemy more time to land a clutch heal to save an ally since the damage also happens in multiple instances.

We can cut diversity... for the sake of consistency... but consistency removes possibilities and creativity... If you argue that pebbles is too strong, that's 1 thing... you can make a real balance tread regarding if he's too strong... but quite frankly, I am not a big fan of the current 'consistency' patch...

[[f13]`11411181]

nvm.

[[IaF]Skyve]

If Pebbles' combo was properly blockable with a nullstone that should mean that Chuck would end up being more than just a 'slave' to the combo, you often wouldn't have a choice other than use the skill to actually toss someone, unlike now where it's first and foremost used as a damage amp for your stalagmites - which quite frankly is a sad undermining of the actual potential the skill has.

[[RCT]Reldnahc]

How would you propose the first be fixed? Fix the anomaly by making Pebbles an anomaly in the mechanics of Null Stone by making Null block being selected as Chuck even though the target you Chuck doesn't have to be targeted?

The second I find odd and pointless too, I don't know if it is supposed to make his burst less by have health regen still ticking through the chunks or what. It is also incredibly annoying when Chronos is hit by Stalagmites because of how the damage is distributed and Rewind. Also isn't Accursed the only hero who can purge stuns at level 1?

He's gotten some damage nerfs through the BAT change and the consistency patch, but even then it doesn't seem to faze the hero and he is still an overly common sight in higher level play.

[foxmindedguy]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Chucking a Stalagmite Target onto yourself reduce the overall combo damage?

[[RCT]Reldnahc]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Chucking a Stalagmite Target onto yourself reduce the overall combo damage?

As long as you are in the aoe of Stalagmites, it doesn't. The extra damage comes from the person chucked, not the target of the Chuck.

[foxmindedguy]

As long as you are in the aoe of Stalagmites, it doesn't. The extra damage comes from the person chucked, not the target of the Chuck.

OK then, I can see a problem with Chuck (as Anakha stated). However, I also feel like it is an interesting mechanic (trick, if you will) and, therefore, would not want it to be removed whatsoever.

My reasoning behind this is that if Pebbles couldn't chuck nullstoned targets, his burst would drop down to 300. Compare this with 1085 of Fayde, 1110 of Witch Slayer, 590 of Pyromancer, 660 of Tundra, 400 of Devourer and 1250 of Deadwood.

[[TECH]Gorb]

Are you accounting for a Nullstone in all of those comparisons?

Additionally, there are plenty of ways to waste a Nullstone in an organised gank or teamfight that do not include wasting Q or E on them (from Pebbles).

[foxmindedguy]

Are you accounting for a Nullstone in all of those comparisons?

Yes, I am accounting for Nullstone, hence the 590 from Pyromancer and (no 660 + attack damage charge) only 660 from Tundra.

[[STLI]Doomhammar]

Other than the stun issue, Pebbles is just retardedly OP because of his 900dmg combo at level 8 with just 20 second cooldown and 240 manacost. He is not even hard to play, all he needs to worry about in early games is his HP and MP because he has low armor and low manapool. After he gets mana and PK he just becomes unstoppable killingmachine

[SirVH]

I agree with both points from Anakha, specially the first. 4850 on a item to be ignored is kinda idiotic imo.

[[IaF]Skyve]

If Pebbles couldn't chuck onto himself anymore he'd still be able to deal 580 combo damage considering you can cuck a unit with nullstone, just not onto themselves.

[foxmindedguy]

If Pebbles couldn't chuck onto himself anymore he'd still be able to deal 580 combo damage considering you can cuck a unit with nullstone, just not onto themselves.

But what if there weren't any other units nearby?

[[f13]SomethingOdd]

But what if there weren't any other units nearby?

Then he can't fully combo him, that's the point.

[[Mana]Farosarg]

That is kinda the point of an item like Nullstone. It is supposed to be picked up against heroes to work as a survivability item and costs such a hefty amount too. Circumventing the item with mechanics is something that should be fixed in my opinion, most notably because the Nullstone can be triggered by other means by the time it is built and I don't think it would be unreasonable for the item to act as a counter to Pebbles who is already a quite strong hero.

[GregerMoek]

Only thing I currently dislike is the "Chuck on oneself" thing. Otherwise I think Pebbles Mechanics are fine overall.

[Iuchiban]

Pebbles is super fine how he is now. Recently he got slighty damage nerf so he is even weaker then before. Bypassing Nullstone by targeting himself is cool and good. Btw if enemy hero got a nullstone, Pebbles won't be able to combo him down anyway.
Don't even think about changing Pebbles because you will get hero like Soulstealer.

Pebbles has his combo damage, has good stun and great utility chuck. If you don't have great early/mid game with him he will be a walking 2 sec stun and SLOOOOOW hard hitting autoattack.

About "consistency'.... mechanic in this situation IS consistent. If you target yourself with chuck you TARGET YOURSELF not bearer of nullstone.

I don't see a point of wasting your great brain power to dig this topic further.

[[f13]`11411181]

"Btw if enemy hero got a nullstone, Pebbles won't be able to combo him down anyway. "

No.
That is the exact point of half my post. Please learn how the mechanics work before spouting off posts like that.