[2.6.10] Nullstone

[[STLI]Doomhammar]

Nullstone at it's current state is widely used in both comp and pub scene. It has never been changed(Really, never ever) and is very powerful

In my opinion it could use some nerfs/changes/whatever but lets get on with the real discussion

Nullstone is relatively easy to build with 2x 875g, 2100g items and 1000g recipe (4850g). But gives a passive ability that is very powerful.
When looking at it's cost and comparing to other items of the same category (Survivability, Regen) It can pretty much outshine every other item.
In example, comparing it to the new Icon of the Godess, it only costs 1550 more, but gives way more hp,mana and regen for the gold spent making it.

But the real part where Nullstone outshines just about every item is spellblock. IMO it has to be the most OP part of the item as it can basically take a huge dump so many heroes, in example Nomad, DM, Predator.

Just recently when I was watching some competitive play, I was quite frankly stunned at the fact that this item has never been changed. Heroes like Forsaken Acher were going over 500gpm with no trouble just by picking up Nullstone, as their manaregen could take the AoE spell spam.

Is Nullstone balanced? I think it's about time we start discussing it.

[Antimodus]

I think it's fine that an item like this exists, but, kinda like FWS used to, it gives too many incidental benefits. We could eliminate the free +5 all stats that come with the recipe. Spell block is easily worth the recipe cost alone, and it already has the uber-efficient blessed orb as a component.

[[f13]zstarkey42]

I'm guessing Nullstone is one of those few 'core' items that the game was designed around, and is most likely taken into account for most heros balance, much like PK and SH. One of the best things about it is the common buildup with other strong items - there were games where I changed my mind and made a sheepstick instead after getting the blessed orb and manatube - note that these items are alry gold efficient and a worthy pickup for laning (Sustainer). As for the spell block, it's arguably the best passive ability in the game meaning that you either negate 1 useful spell from your opponents (in case they have more than 1 useful targeted spell, say Witch Slayer or BH, but most of the times that is enough to negate said hero altogether when they need to chain 2 spells to be effective), or your entire enemies arsenal altogether (in case he has only 1 target-table spell - this effectively hard counters a few one-trick heros hard, like Rampage or Predator. There is almost no reason why you wouldn't want one for defensive purposes, and there are very few times the spellblock doesn't turn to be highly useful throughout the game. However, changing this will most likely mess with the entire game's balance. Changing items is always a delicate process, because it technically affects every hero's balance in the game.

What I think is that even though the item is somewhat 'overpowered' in benefits, there will always be a (hopefully small) set of items that is just too good to be ignored where the game's balance revolves at, assuming people are going to use them consistently. Think about it, items like Bottle or Mana Battery give you tons of benefits for their extremely low cost, and are viable during most of the game on almost every hero, and nobody really complains about them. Nullstone is not really different. It provides meaningful stats for carries/semi carries while acting as a powerful defense during the whole game. The recipe costs 1000 gold, and all it basically does is slightly increase the individual stats from all 3 items while adding the spell shield effect. Is 1000g too cheap for such an effect for the whole game? Probably is in almost any situation, but it's also one of the best counters to certain heros, and those need to exist after all. Nullstone can also be countered by cheap single target skills (deadwood's throw, sucubus leech, or even push tablets which are a common pickup).

However, even with the high stat gain + passive, this item also comes with a high mana regen component. It does make some heros able to farm a lot after they get it with little to no downtime (there's even a health regen on it). It's especially noticeable on heros like Silhouete, Valk or FA that abuse their skills to farm stacked camps and ancients quickly, so the item pays off relatively fast. That's what I find to be a bit too much imo. An item that counters single-target based heros is fine, and even gives solid survival and damage to add (25 damage regardless of what attribute your hero is), combined with some attack speed/armor. Making it also a great GPM booster on some heros is probably too much. I'm guessing maybe there weren't as many fast-farmer heros when the item was initially ported from DoTa so this wasn't an issue, but I'm not sure... I think the only 'nerf' the item could need is on the regen values. Right now it's basically the same as a Runed Cleaver for ranged heros with MUCH more survivability added to it. Plus, it probably outshadows RC for most melees 90% of the time.

[Phasmy]

This item has definitely not been the same as it is now. It actually used to be both cheaper and more powerful. (Recipe cost was 825 and it used to reduce the cooldown of nullstone by 1 second for each ability cast on you) The mana regen was also nerfed recently from 200% to 150%.

Shrunken will still prove more protection in a teamfight than nullstone will ever be able to do. The recipe price could be increased to around 1200 but it would still be a great first item.

[LordTroll]

Gosh, please don't nerf this anymore. It will become utterly terrible except to counter very specific strats, and even then it will cost a lot.

[[0CK]MegaMan_X`]

It was also nerfed when the blue glowing effect was added, now your opponents know when it is up or down.

[[KNO]DrPeckers]

Your forgetting the fact that the spell block is countered by Tablet of Command, an item with half the gold cost. Whenever I am on a supportish hero and I see the enemy carry or mid building a nullstone, I always get Tablet of Command and laugh when they wonder why all my team's single target abilities fly through their nullstone.

[[TPBs]Korges]

LEAVE IT. Null stone is ok

[foxmindedguy]

Although I personally think Nullstone is fine, but I can see why someone would want the extra +5 all stats to be gimped from such an item. Illustrating some comparisons below:

Comparing the Item with other Sustainers Items:

So basically seeing what Sustainer builds into and how the finished product stats improve from the sum of its components.
(1) Rune Cleaver: Gets +14 attack damage, +1 HP Regeneration and +25% Mana Regeneration upon completion.
(2) Sacrificial Stone: +10% Mana Regeneration, +25 Health per charge, -0.25 HP regeneration per charge and a flat +1 mana regeneration per charge instead of 10% incremental increases. (I will not go over the death timer thing because we are talking about stats here, not effects).
(3) Restoration Stone: +15 attack damage.
(4) Nullstone: +5 all stats, +1 hp regeneration, 25% mana regeneration.

I can see the stat gain disparity between these items, but would hold any judgments because each item has a different effect and some are stronger than the others.

Comparing the Blessed Orb Items:

So basically seeing what Blessed Orb builds into and how the finished product stats improve from the sum of its components.
(1) Frost Wolf Skull: +4 strength, +5 agility and +5 intelligence.
(2) Geometer's Bane: Absolutely zilch.
(3) Sheepstick: 100% mana regeneration.
(4) Nullstone: +5 all stats, +1 hp regeneration, 25% mana regeneration.

Again, there is stat gain disparity here but as effects are different I will restrain from passing any verdicts.

Comparing Spell Blocking Items:

So basically seeing what Blessed Orb builds into and how the finished product stats improve from the sum of its components.
(1) Shrunken Head: Absolutely Zilch.
(2) Void Talisman: Can't say for certain, but we can take 3 estimates:

- Minor Totem estimate: +1 all stat = 53g. Which means Void Talisman +7 all stat should be around 371g and also by this estimation Void Talisman is -21 all Stats below what it should be (under-estimation because this methodology does not take into account inventory free-up pricing etc).
- Major Totem estimate: +1 all stat = 135g. Which means Void Talisman +7 all stat should be around 945g and also by this estimation Void Talisman is -4 all Stats below what it should be (under-estimation because this methodology does not take into account inventory free-up pricing etc).
- Blessed Orb estimate: +1 all stat = 210g. Which means Void Talisman +7 all stat should be around 1470g and also by this estimation Void Talisman is +0.14 all Stats ABOVE what it should be (over-estimation because this methodology does not take into account inventory free-up pricing etc).

(3) Storm Spirit: +25 movement speed.
(4) Nullstone: +5 all stats, +1 hp regeneration, 25% mana regeneration.

Based on the above three comparison mechanisms, you decide whether or not Nullstone's +5 all stats should be gimped or not?

[[NU]Tomate]

The issue with Null Stone is that it just fits perfectly into the needs of many heroes due to its well rounded stats.

Heroes like Valk, Hag, FA, Madman (unseen lately but hey) and so on are heroes with high mobility but who are fairly squishy. They cannot go pure damage like a Cleaver or such as their first item... So, picking up this item provides them a decent damage output with the +30 damage damage it provides (15 from stats... don't call me out) and all the regen they need to be able to keep going for ever when farming with skills.

The issue is pretty much that the versatility combined with high mobility is a very deadly mid game combo that allows those heroes to transition into late game. Even lategame, the item remains useful due to the spell block...

Same could be argued about Geometer, only difference is that Geo is MUCH more useful on ranged with the exception of magebane I guess...

[Fen__]

Comparing items serving completly diferent purposes is a bit pointless.



I belive that nullstone is 1 of more balanced items. Although it can be a hard counter to some heroes, many heroes with reasonably worthless single target skills are hard counter to nullstone as well making it balanced.


Another story is that metioned before items like stomrspirit or tablet counters spellblock as well, while being at the same time extremly usefull overall. Its not like you have to buy a trash item to counter a nullstone.



Stat gains on null are mediocare. For 5k gold you gain only 300 hp 15 dmg/ias (ill stop here because null is in 90% of time item bought on a carry and they mostly aim for those bonuses) which is low compared to lets say geo bane which adds same ammount of hp and significant increase of carry potential via dps/speed increase.


I belive that nullstone and geometer bane are very similar items in terms of what they do for carries so comparision of both can be usefull.

We should ask ourself a question, what would we prefer, Spellblock or ilusions on a carry ?

In 90% of game scenarios i would prefer ilusions since they offer great dmg increase, scouting ability, tanking/pushing towers etc. At the same time with proper usage activation of geo bane can serve as a semi-spellblock which can disjoint all single target projectiles.


So last unmentioned before aspect of nullstone is the hp/mp regen. Some belive that this is a nullstone source of opness, but in my oppinion those attributes are the factors making nullstone viable. If nullstone would lose it regens, people would probably stop buying it and getting geo bane instead in 99% of scenarios.

[foxmindedguy]

_Fen: I mentioned that each item has different effects (as in serve different purposes), hence my withholding of any judgment. I posted my analysis here, just for interest-sake and see if really Nullstone components outdo the others. That doesn't mean it should necessarily be nerfed, but compiling distantly relevant information is not bad.

[sharbarachu]

Nullstone is in a very good place right now. I think the bigger issue is one of burst/ward power/initiation power in that if you DON'T build defensive items you simply die before doing anything on a carry.

It's more or less mandatory to do Helm, Shrunken, or Nullstone as first or second item on every single carry, and a majority of semi-carries (pk sometimes takes precedence here). Don't expect this to change unless the meta-game is shifted away from burst-initiation.

[[f13]`11411181]

Comparing Geometer's Bane to Nullstone is about as fruitless as comparing Shrunken Head to the same items. Most of the heroes we see Nullstone first on generally are weak to blinkhex initiation and have inbuilt escape mechanisms - so it's always about negating the first disable to allow yourself the reaction time to escape. Nullstone being passively defensive like that is its biggest drawcard, not necessarily how good its actual effect is.
A lot of the more popular gankers actually bypass Nullstone entirely for their primary function, or have the easiest time circumventing it (Pebbles, Deadwood, Tundra).
Had old Sacrificial Stone existed, I could have made a side-by-side comparison as to how negating a leading stun equated to more effective HP than the difference a Sacrificial Stone provided in raw HP while providing the same level of mana regen - but that's kinda redundant now.

[[NEVA]Soulstealah`]

[[RCT]Reldnahc]

An item with a specific purpose that is supported by generalized stats. Literally any hero could make use of the stats provided on this item unlike other items with specific purposes such as Nullfire Blade. Its effect is great on its own, but the stats are what make the item so widespread. It is appealing to all heroes in the circumstance there is something of worth to block on the opposing team.

[[Mana]Farosarg]

You also have to remember that it is a pretty costly item. It's block effect being strongest early on before people are able to build counters to it and the roaming happens generally with less than full squad. Furthermore you generally want the regen nice and early along with the stats to go. that is a long time making the item, especially if you are struggling for farm. The build-up is not the worst but with other options being HotBL, new Sac-stone and such that you can build nice and fast and then move onto the core items, it certainly isn't the auto-choise item either. Personally I find myself going it in more rare cases where it's a clear pick-up and look for alternatives the rest of the time. Obviously it is a different case when you are already either snowballing or getting free-farm due to laning situation.

I wouldn't be nerfing the item considering the early-game opportunity cost and with the other options come late-game, leaving the item a good situational item. Also sometimes you just don't fix things when they are not broken so while "has not being touched" and "picked both in pubs and competitive" are good reasons to take a look at an item, doesn't mean that any changes should be done.

[[DRAE]`blackbird`]

It gives carries some protection because of how long the CD for shrunken is. It basically makes it so that it takes more than 1 person (fayde/pebbles/parasite/deadwood/etc) to gank the carry, making for a more balanced game. If null is nerfed or made crappy, then those solo ganking heros will becomes top tier to take down enemy carries with, now, almost every ranged carry makes null just because it's a great item, even if just for hellflower/sheep/etc.

[SirVH]

It's frustrating when your Fayde can't gank that Hag antmore and since Fayde is already item dependent, farm a tablet is hard on a hero like Fayde.

At the same time, it's a relief when you're fighting against a Rampage, or Witch Slayer and stuff. So I guess the item is ok.

[[STLI]Tupimus]

Stupid how it was buffed so much it's a safe all-rounder for every game with no thought put into it whatsoever.

Before it was buffed it was actually bought because the spell block was actually needed... and now it just happens to be a perk. It doesn't need to be a generalist item.